2013 Hungarian GP - Hungaroring

[QLDriver]

http://184.106.145.74/f1-championship/f ... ber-47.pdf
(not sure how long that link will work!)

That's the stewards' decision. I agree that it's surprising there was no sporting penalty - the fact that there was no great advantage gained doesn't seem to usually factor in when it's a technical problem.

[myurr]

No Penalty For Alonso ..But Ferrari had to pay 15k which is a joke ...

Also no TV tonight and go to your room, you're grounded for 3 weeks (just in time for next race).

After what they did to poor Grosjean they should at least remove all points from Ferrari for this race. Maybe the drivers could keep theirs, but a 30 second penalty at least to them too.

I guess that consistency isn't one of the stewards KPIs.

[myurr]

http://184.106.145.74/f1-championship/f ... ber-47.pdf
(not sure how long that link will work!)

That's the stewards' decision. I agree that it's surprising there was no sporting penalty - the fact that there was no great advantage gained doesn't seem to usually factor in when it's a technical problem.

It clearly says that the breach one one of the sporting regulations rather than the technical regulations - otherwise the automatic penalty would have been disqualification. Still inconsistent with the application of the rules for Grosjean.

[cirrusflyer]

All the drama about another fake and meaningless Merc pole. "Best qualifying car". There's no such thing as "qualifying car". There are good qualifying results that mean little after bad races. Good thing that after ten laps nobody will remember.

Not really as predicted above...

[iotar__]

About Grosjean's penalties, one complete joke - Button one and one very harsh. Even Massa was against it. I repeat: how the hell can they give a penalty or even consider it when in Monaco Perez dives in and Raikkonen on purpose turns into him causing collision and nothing happens. How was that not avoidable collision? Who can argue that F1 and FIA are two circus type operations that have nothing to do with sport? Incident as hundred others and they can always toss the coin between racing one and collision. Special FIA/F1 coin it is, meaningless as it was or not.

The one with Massa should go into spirit of the rules category, like let's say redirecting gasses for aero purposes in technical part. This one is perfectly OK, interpretation is what matters but with overtakes - no, of course not. Here rules are rules, the fact that he wasn't using outside of the track to aid the overtake on purpose means nothing. That it was split second, wheel to wheel racing and forced situation. "No" to brilliant attacking driving. OK, fine, whatever.

Who needs overtakes and drivers trying to make things happen when instead we have brilliant battle between Kimi "the tortoise tactics" Raikkonen and Sebastian "can't overtake to save his life" Vettel. I bet some TV showmen were trying to hype this as something exciting when in fact everyone knew nothing was going to happen and it was race over situation, zzzzz.

At least Hamiton won (from not fake PP but also without RB's dominance). Kudos to him for making it happen, I'd rather see him winning than Vettel/Raikkonen. It makes championship more interesting and despite his excuses making machine the guy can drive. I was wondering though how was that possible for Mercedes and the only answer that makes sense is that they made it by not pushing 100%. So basically garbage, 75% Pirelli type win, one Lewis surely cannot be proud of.

[SectorOne]

Fairly good race, some stellar overtakes.
Hamilton snuck up on Webber beautifully there!

Still light years off Vettel in the standings but with performances like this Mercedes might just be able to have a go at it.

[komninosm]

No Penalty For Alonso ..But Ferrari had to pay 15k which is a joke ...

Also no TV tonight and go to your room, you're grounded for 3 weeks (just in time for next race).

... After what they did to poor Grosjean they should at least remove all points from Ferrari for this race. Maybe the drivers could keep theirs, but a 30 second penalty at least to them too.

Why does my post say:
Last edited by Tomba on 28 Jul 2013, 21:58, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Removed personal comments

and there's nothing changed in it except the addition of "..."
(myurr quoted my post pre edit, it seems identical)

Also, why did Rosberg do so poorly (before the fire)? What did he say afterwards?

[turbof1]

About Grosjean's penalties, one complete joke - Button one and one very harsh. Even Massa was against it. I repeat: how the hell can they give a penalty or even consider it when in Monaco Perez dives in and Raikkonen on purpose turns into him causing collision and nothing happens. How was that not avoidable collision? Who can argue that F1 and FIA are two circus type operations that have nothing to do with sport? Incident as hundred others and they can always toss the coin between racing one and collision. Special FIA/F1 coin it is, meaningless as it was or not.

The one with Massa should go into spirit of the rules category, like let's say redirecting gasses for aero purposes in technical part. This one is perfectly OK, interpretation is what matters but with overtakes - no, of course not. Here rules are rules, the fact that he wasn't using outside of the track to aid the overtake on purpose means nothing. That it was split second, wheel to wheel racing and forced situation. "No" to brilliant attacking driving. OK, fine, whatever.

Who needs overtakes and drivers trying to make things happen when instead we have brilliant battle between Kimi "the tortoise tactics" Raikkonen and Sebastian "can't overtake to save his life" Vettel. I bet some TV showmen were trying to hype this as something exciting when in fact everyone knew nothing was going to happen and it was race over situation, zzzzz.

At least Hamiton won (from not fake PP but also without RB's dominance). Kudos to him for making it happen, I'd rather see him winning than Vettel/Raikkonen. It makes championship more interesting and despite his excuses making machine the guy can drive. I was wondering though how was that possible for Mercedes and the only answer that makes sense is that they made it by not pushing 100%. So basically garbage, 75% Pirelli type win, one Lewis surely cannot be proud of.

The big difference with the Monaco situation is that Button got pushed out of the track. Better is to compare this situation with last years Hamilton-Grosjean accident, but without the consequences of it.

The punishment for going off track to overtake Massa was way too harsh. Grosjean never gained from it, was only 2 inches from the line and did it to avoid hitting Massa. Sometimes you have to put the rules aside and look at the case in front of you, something the stewards didn't.

[Arterius]

Just to chip in on the Grosjean penalties.
For the, although harsh, penalty on the Massa overtake we don't know what was said in the drivers briefing about overtaking at that spot. It could well have been that they specifically stated that no over taking at turn 4 by going off track would be allowed. Just something to thing about.
With the Button incident the rules clearly state that you have to leave the car enough space in the breaking zone. Grosjean was right next to Button and pushed him off track. That penalty was well deserved.

[iotar__]

About Grosjean's penalties, one complete joke - Button one and one very harsh. Even Massa was against it. I repeat: how the hell can they give a penalty or even consider it when in Monaco Perez dives in and Raikkonen on purpose turns into him causing collision and nothing happens. How was that not avoidable collision? Who can argue that F1 and FIA are two circus type operations that have nothing to do with sport? Incident as hundred others and they can always toss the coin between racing one and collision. Special FIA/F1 coin it is, meaningless as it was or not.

The one with Massa should go into spirit of the rules category, like let's say redirecting gasses for aero purposes in technical part. This one is perfectly OK, interpretation is what matters but with overtakes - no, of course not. Here rules are rules, the fact that he wasn't using outside of the track to aid the overtake on purpose means nothing. That it was split second, wheel to wheel racing and forced situation. "No" to brilliant attacking driving. OK, fine, whatever.

Who needs overtakes and drivers trying to make things happen when instead we have brilliant battle between Kimi "the tortoise tactics" Raikkonen and Sebastian "can't overtake to save his life" Vettel. I bet some TV showmen were trying to hype this as something exciting when in fact everyone knew nothing was going to happen and it was race over situation, zzzzz.

At least Hamiton won (from not fake PP but also without RB's dominance). Kudos to him for making it happen, I'd rather see him winning than Vettel/Raikkonen. It makes championship more interesting and despite his excuses making machine the guy can drive. I was wondering though how was that possible for Mercedes and the only answer that makes sense is that they made it by not pushing 100%. So basically garbage, 75% Pirelli type win, one Lewis surely cannot be proud of.

The big difference with the Monaco situation is that Button got pushed out of the track. Better is to compare this situation with last years Hamilton-Grosjean accident, but without the consequences of it.

The punishment for going off track to overtake Massa was way too harsh. Grosjean never gained from it, was only 2 inches from the line and did it to avoid hitting Massa. Sometimes you have to put the rules aside and look at the case in front of you, something the stewards didn't.

Was it the same as: Button pushed off the track by Perez in Germany? He left the track there. Or Vettel at the start, or Alonso-Raikkonen Suzuka 2012, this leaving space part is a matter of interpretation. Was RAi-PER Monaco avoidable collision or maybe Raikkonen left enough space, well clearly he did not, hence the collision part. He didn't push him off but they collided so it's OK? No.

Button-Grosjean was in essence no different to Alonso - Webber in Valencia 2012, forcing the issue and relying on the reaction. If you want another joke penalty comparison: Webber-Rosberg earlier this season, since it was RB a reprimand for turning into Rosberg. More? Alonso bulldozing at Monaco 2012 start. Webber-Massa or Webber-Maldonado in Abu Dhabi? Avoidable collisions if there ever were. What exactly happened in Hungary: they went side to side, like with Perez in Germany, one could make a corner from that position, one couldn't which is important, they banged wheels, one cut the corner. Racing incident. You can stretch from 50 to 100%.

Another aspect is F1 drivers are as dishonest as they get. Button instead of whining should admit that he knew exactly what he was doing and knew who he was racing against. They know which way the wind is blowing, who got painted as a target in terms of possible penalties last season and are trying to take advantage. I bet you that with for example Alonso Button wouldn't be so uncompromising, nevermind shouting insults afterwards. Give me a break, Button is dishonest, political animal here with fake outrage to cover his part-fault.

Same with Alonso: the biggest bully overtaker in F1 is complaining about the start, this sounds like a joke but it isn't. "Grosjean was concentrating on only me, maybe he forgot that we are racing 24 [sic. 22] cars. I was happy that he paid penalty after to compensate a little bit for his aggressiveness." Remarkable, he was concentrating on a driver behind while cleanly preventing getting overtaken. The horror. Yep, if you don't get out of Alonso's way at the start you clearly deserve ANY penalty, flawless logic, Fernando doesn't have to even look at it. After the same penalty FA would be complaining for a week, another dishonest, political driver here. God forbid anyone is aggressive unless it's me in Valencia 2012. You see FIA - this penalty is Ferrari/Alonso approved, without looking at it.

Of course with DRS misuse we have circumstances, interpretations, thank god for that. Any doubts that F1 is a joke? Massa overtake: ok, fine whatever, no need for interpretations until something similar happens and they will let it fly with I bet "no gain" excuse.

[cirrusflyer]

The stewards apparently were not well pleased with several questionable situations in the space of a few laps and after the pass on Button I can understand that.

The pass on button isnt even close to something the stewards need to bother with, end off. We need to have proper stewards who check proper things and dont go after each and every god damn little touch, especially when the little touch causes no harm to anyone and no one loses more then 0.1 seconds.

Massa colided in to Rosberg and they did not investigate. So double standards!?

[LionKing]

Massa colided in to Rosberg and they did not investigate. So double standards!?

That was on Rosberg though.
There was replay from a higher perspective and it was clear.

[GrizzleBoy]

The stewards apparently were not well pleased with several questionable situations in the space of a few laps and after the pass on Button I can understand that.

The pass on button isnt even close to something the stewards need to bother with, end off. We need to have proper stewards who check proper things and dont go after each and every god damn little touch, especially when the little touch causes no harm to anyone and no one loses more then 0.1 seconds.

Massa colided in to Rosberg and they did not investigate. So double standards!?

Preeeetty sure Rosberg turned in on Massa on lap 1?

They let Romain go with Button because Romain basically had the move done and the places were decided already. He didn't need to squeeze Button so much to get the move done, it was just an "unfortunate consequence" of his driving.

With Massa, I'm willing to bet that both Ferrari and McLaren were lobbying extra hard at this point and something had to be done. Also he did pass off the track, but you could also say that he did it so as not to cause a collision, which is also true. He committed to the move and there was a car sharing the racing line that he couldn't make disappear.

[cirrusflyer]

Massa colided in to Rosberg and they did not investigate. So double standards!?

That was on Rosberg though.
There was replay from a higher perspective and it was clear.

Agreed, but I was referring more on to no investigation. It was an incident...
Really unhappy with FIAs incosistency.

[myurr]

They let Romain go with Button because Romain basically had the move done and the places were decided already. He didn't need to squeeze Button so much to get the move done, it was just an "unfortunate consequence" of his driving.

With Massa, I'm willing to bet that both Ferrari and McLaren were lobbying extra hard at this point and something had to be done. Also he did pass off the track, but you could also say that he did it so as not to cause a collision, which is also true. He committed to the move and there was a car sharing the racing line that he couldn't make disappear.

Massa actually had an obligation to give Grosjean room, something he did not do forcing him to leave the track. Even Massa said the penalty was wrong.

I believe the stewards let Grosjean off on the Button incident as they'd already been too harsh on the Massa incident. I hope the 4 wheels off track rule is brought up in the next drivers briefing as surely the drivers will want clarity on when it is going to be applied and when it will be ignored.