Red Bull exceed fuel flow limit, Ricciardo DSQ at Australian GP

[beelsebob]

What do you think a flow sensor is? Hint - it doesn't directly measure the mass flow. It measures the pressure, temperature etc. The injectors are doing the exact same thing is the FIA's flow sensor is doing, they're measuring the exact same parameters, and doing the same maths to come up with a result.

Actually, it does measure the flow:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasonic_flow_meter

Read the very document you linked...
The device to measure fluid velocity, fluid direction, temperature.
The device to compute volumetric flow rate, cumulative volumetric flow, cumulative mass flow and mass flow rate. Mass flow can be determined from a calculated density‐temperature equation/lookup table

It does not directly measure flow. It measures velocity, direction and temperature. It then calculates flow rate.

[beelsebob]

Did Kevin not also set his best Q2 time under yellows?

Yes, but they've changed the rules re yellow flags in qualifying. The stewards will now observe whether you set your fastest time in the flag sector of the track with the yellows in it. If you show you slowed down in that flag sector, but still set a hot lap, that's fine.

[beelsebob]

This is wrong, just above there are quotes from the regs:
5.10.3 Homologated sensors must be fitted which directly measure the pressure, the temperature and the flow of the fuel supplied to the injectors, these signals must be supplied to the FIA data logger.
5.10.4 Only one homologated FIA fuel flow sensor may be fitted to the car which must be placed wholly within the fuel tank

Thanks for pointing that out again. I still don't quite see how these regulation cover the case of the sensor perhaps supplying false values - may it be by missconfiguration or other factor.

That's kinda the point... They don't. They do not say that there's any allowance for this situation other than "point it out to the FIA, the FIA will check, and may supply you with a new sensor". You don't get to make up your own rule in this circumstance.

IMO - the predetermined rule, above all else, is the limit, that being 100kg/h. The other regs are there to ensure that the specified fuel flow limit is met and can be policed.

They are all predetermined rules, you must abide by all of them.

I still think RedBull has an extremely strong case if they can prove that the measuring device (and the correction values supplied by the FIA during the race) were not correct and that they were not in breach of the fuel rate. If they can't, then of course all this talk is redundant and the disqualification will stand as an example of just enforcing of the rules.

1) No, they don't, given that the reason they were DSQed was because they didn't follow the rules, not because they went over the limit.
2) Even if it was because they went over the limit, it's already been stated that red bull believed that the device was 0.25% out from the actual flow. The sensor specifications allow for up to 1% variance. So the sensor wasn't even out of spec!

[dans79]

I still think RedBull has an extremely strong case if they can prove that the measuring device (and the correction values supplied by the FIA during the race) were not correct and that they were not in breach of the fuel rate. If they can't, then of course all this talk is redundant and the disqualification will stand as an example of just enforcing of the rules.

It doesn't matter, the only measurements that matter are the ones that come from that sensor. That's it end of story, all the stuff in the press, and the pages of "but the sensor is inaccurate" on this thread don't matter. The only things that matter are the rules, if RBR got away with it, then pretty much every technical rule would be fair game. teams could argue that the FIA doesn't measure wheelbase or weight, or ride height accurately enough etc etc etc......

[thomin]

This is wrong, just above there are quotes from the regs:
5.10.3 Homologated sensors must be fitted which directly measure the pressure, the temperature and the flow of the fuel supplied to the injectors, these signals must be supplied to the FIA data logger.
5.10.4 Only one homologated FIA fuel flow sensor may be fitted to the car which must be placed wholly within the fuel tank

Thanks for pointing that out again. I still don't quite see how these regulation cover the case of the sensor perhaps supplying false values - may it be by missconfiguration or other factor. IMO - the predetermined rule, above all else, is the limit, that being 100kg/h. The other regs are there to ensure that the specified fuel flow limit is met and can be policed.

I still think RedBull has an extremely strong case if they can prove that the measuring device (and the correction values supplied by the FIA during the race) were not correct and that they were not in breach of the fuel rate. If they can't, then of course all this talk is redundant and the disqualification will stand as an example of just enforcing of the rules.

1) there is a technical directive dealing with faulty sensors. Basically, if the FIA detects a problem, the FIA can tell a team to use other means of fuel flow measurement.

2) Therefore, Red Bull doesn't have a strong case, even if the sensor was faulty, because it's not their call
To make.

3) However, the sensor has been tested repeatedly and now errors have been found. It's well within tolerance levels.

[jz11]

What do you think a flow sensor is? Hint - it doesn't directly measure the mass flow. It measures the pressure, temperature etc. The injectors are doing the exact same thing is the FIA's flow sensor is doing, they're measuring the exact same parameters, and doing the same maths to come up with a result.

Actually, it does measure the flow:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasonic_flow_meter

Read the very document you linked...
The device to measure fluid velocity, fluid direction, temperature.
The device to compute volumetric flow rate, cumulative volumetric flow, cumulative mass flow and mass flow rate. Mass flow can be determined from a calculated density‐temperature equation/lookup table

It does not directly measure flow. It measures velocity, direction and temperature. It then calculates flow rate.

it actually does measure flow, well, sort of, it uses doppler effect to get a value from the signal (ultrasonic wave) that the sender sent into the liquid and the receiver received (when the wave bounced off of an air bubble, even very tiny one), if there is no air or solids in the fluid - it cannot work

its reading will also be affected by any and all pressure weaves inside the fluid itself (and they for sure are there, the waves), by how much, no one probably knows for sure, but I bet there is no standard test to tell how accurate it would be for this very specific application, I bet those 0,25% and 0,1% accuracy numbers they specify in their data sheet, are for more or less steady/laminar flow

imagine it this way - if you hear the train coming your way (and you are standing very still) with its siren on - you can hear clear distinction when the train passes you - doppler effect, but if the train is also oscillating back and forth a tiny bit while still maintaining its average speed, then the sound you will hear will be distorted, by how much? it depends - factors - the frequency and amplitude of that tiny oscillation

no one will ever design a standard procedure for this type of accuracy test for such an instrument, just because it is way too application specific, and what smart people do in these cases - they use some other means of measurement, or come up with some special way of telling if the reading is reliable enough to be trusted - and those means in this case are - mathematical model of other parameters of the engine - pressure, temperature, injection cycles - which is what RB used to find out their actual flow rate and FIA chose to ignore (but still left themselves a loophole to dismiss that flow meter reading if THEY think it's wrong, using still the same techniques as RB did)

[jz11]

one more thing - usually technical issues are looked at only after the finish of the race, during post race parc ferme, and then, if some issues are raised, stewards look into them, I find it quite odd that during the race they would send someone to the team with a message to reduce the flow rate because we might disqualify you, in my opinion - the rules at that point are already broken, should have just waited and disqualify then

these types of "warnings" and "special cases" are exact cause of the drama - which they should avoid at all cost, or, if you're FOM, try to make them, at all cost, because it will generate noise!

if I was some other team, and heard that RB got special treatment via that warning (they would follow it, reduce the flow) and finished the race lets say 4th or 5th, and I, with my 96kg/h flow rate form the start line (as advised by the same stewards) finished 6th, I would quite upset to say the least

[beelsebob]

Read the very document you linked...
The device to measure fluid velocity, fluid direction, temperature.
The device to compute volumetric flow rate, cumulative volumetric flow, cumulative mass flow and mass flow rate. Mass flow can be determined from a calculated density‐temperature equation/lookup table

It does not directly measure flow. It measures velocity, direction and temperature. It then calculates flow rate.

it actually does measure flow, well, sort of, it uses doppler effect to get a value from the signal (ultrasonic wave) that the sender sent into the liquid and the receiver received (when the wave bounced off of an air bubble, even very tiny one), if there is no air or solids in the fluid - it cannot work

Again, read the very document linked. The sensor is specified to measure fluid velocity, fluid direction, and temperature. It is also specified to COMPUTE various types of flow rate.

This is not a guess at how it works. This is the FIA's specification of the device.

[dans79]

its reading will also be affected by any and all pressure weaves inside the fluid itself (and they for sure are there, the waves), by how much, no one probably knows for sure, but I bet there is no standard test to tell how accurate it would be for this very specific application, I bet those 0,25% and 0,1% accuracy numbers they specify in their data sheet, are for more or less steady/laminar flow

as i said yesterday, this is most likely why they are probably doing an integration over many readings. the sensors runs at 1khz and the reporting says 5hz or 10hz. Thus, the reporting rate is a calculation based on 200 or 100 samples. This is more than enough data points to apply numerical methods that would compensate for things like standing waves and momentary temperature gradients etc.

[jz11]

Read the very document you linked...
The device to measure fluid velocity, fluid direction, temperature.
The device to compute volumetric flow rate, cumulative volumetric flow, cumulative mass flow and mass flow rate. Mass flow can be determined from a calculated density‐temperature equation/lookup table

It does not directly measure flow. It measures velocity, direction and temperature. It then calculates flow rate.

it actually does measure flow, well, sort of, it uses doppler effect to get a value from the signal (ultrasonic wave) that the sender sent into the liquid and the receiver received (when the wave bounced off of an air bubble, even very tiny one), if there is no air or solids in the fluid - it cannot work

Again, read the very document linked. The sensor is specified to measure fluid velocity, fluid direction, and temperature. It is also specified to COMPUTE various types of flow rate.

This is not a guess at how it works. This is the FIA's specification of the device.

why are you nit-picking? no one is concerned as to what happens inside the thing - the output is the mass flow, therefore you can ignore the detailed specifics and just say - it measures mass flow

it's like saying that the red thing is not actually red, we just see the reflected color, not the object itself - no one cares - we talk about the object, not the light reflection

I could even say that FIA is wrong in their statement that the velocity is measured, it's not, frequency is measured, and the difference between the sent and heard is then interpreted as velocity

[Tim.Wright]

They are all predetermined rules, you must abide by all of them.

What you are still missing Bob, is that there is no rule stating how the fuel flow is to be measured. Hence the current situation of the appeal.

Therefore if they can prove, in a way which is satisfactory to the FIA, that they remained under the limit, then they havent broken any rules

[MOWOG]

Why does Formula One remind me of the Warren Zevon song: "Send Lawyers, Guns & Money" ?

Ah, Formula One - where all the important action takes place away from the track.

[GrandAxe]

Its a story of being too smart for ones boots. It could have gone like this:

RB: Sensor is faulty.
FIA checks it out: No, it isn't.
RB: Its faulty!
FIA: Use the FP one then.
RB: No, we like the faulty one better.
FIA (scratches head): Really? Suit yourselves.

RB susses the FIA sensor representative is NOT smart as a button and invents new fuel flow model.
RB to RB engineer: Use the backup.
RB engineer: But it says on the tin to ask the FIA FIRST.
RB: Just you the damn backup or prepare for gardening in Siberia!
Smart as a button FIA sensor representative immediately spots RB's trick.

FIA: Use this correction factor to bring your fuel rate back in line.
RB: The sensor is faulty.
FIA: The sensor is faulty? Didn't we hear that one before? Use the correction factor now.
RB: Our fuel rate is just fine, you can't tell us how to measure fuel rates.
FIA: Enh?!
RB: Yes, our fuel flow model is better than yours.
FIA: What?!

Bang! Disqualification, FIA pulls the trigger.

[foxmulder_ms]

Frankly, I think FIA was generous to warn RedBull like three times...

[Ral]

They are all predetermined rules, you must abide by all of them.

What you are still missing Bob, is that there is no rule stating how the fuel flow is to be measured. Hence the current situation of the appeal.

Therefore if they can prove, in a way which is satisfactory to the FIA, that they remained under the limit, then they havent broken any rules

Yes there are. You keep insisting there aren't because they're filed under a different header, but they are still part of the same rules and regulations that all the teams and drivers have agreed to when they signed up to compete.

As per section 2 of the Sporting regulations:

2 General Undertaking

2.1 All drivers, competitors and officials participating in the Championship undertake, on behalf of themselves, their employees, agents and suppliers, to observe all the provisions as supplemented or amended of the International Sporting Code (the Code), the Formula One Technical Regulations (the Technical Regulations) and the present Sporting Regulations, together referred to as "the Regulations".

It really isn't that hard. The FIA's championship, the FIA's rules. RBR broke them, knowingly, thinking they had a case if they could prove their sensors' readings were within the regulations. But that's irrelevant, because RBR's and Renault's own sensors are not the ones used to judge legality, the FIA's sensors are.