2013 Singapore GP - Marina Bay

[astracrazy]

Interesting claim on RB from AMuS - http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 41427.html

So what they're saying is that renault is giving red bull racing as their "works" team a unique engine super-map which misfires cylinders much more often than anyone else between 0 and 50% throttle, giving them a lot more grip and traction on corner exit.

this is why i can't wait for 2014 because this ebd stuff will stop

[Juzh]

Interesting claim on RB from AMuS - http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 41427.html

So what they're saying is that renault is giving red bull racing as their "works" team a unique engine super-map which misfires cylinders much more often than anyone else between 0 and 50% throttle, giving them a lot more grip and traction on corner exit.

this is why i can't wait for 2014 because this ebd stuff will stop

But why exactly? Because red bull are doing it best? Whe might as well get rid of the diffusers then. What is so wrong with EBD that is must go no matter what?

[astracrazy]

So what they're saying is that renault is giving red bull racing as their "works" team a unique engine super-map which misfires cylinders much more often than anyone else between 0 and 50% throttle, giving them a lot more grip and traction on corner exit.

this is why i can't wait for 2014 because this ebd stuff will stop

But why exactly? Because red bull are doing it best? Whe might as well get rid of the diffusers then. What is so wrong with EBD that is must go no matter what?

i don't care less if red bull is doing it better. Why would you want to get rid of the diffuser though just because you can't have an ebd?

I want the EBD to go because f1 is now stuck in a rut with it and it can't be taken any further. Red Bull have done the best with it aided by Renault, yes - and have got the success to go with it.

But other teams will never be able to catch up now without spending millions for little gain. If the above is true as well, other Renault supplied teams have got no chance either because no matter what they do with there aero designs they won't have the map to match.

I'm not saying it has been a bad thing. But its reached its height - much like many other technologies. F1 is about hitting the reset button sometimes and this is what we need with this. All the EBD is now is to be quiet frank a waste on teams resources

anyway this is slightly off topic

[Juzh]

I'm not saying it has been a bad thing. But its reached its height - much like many other technologies. F1 is about hitting the reset button sometimes and this is what we need with this. All the EBD is now is to be quiet frank a waste on teams resources

It's clearly not a waste of resources if it's giving significant gains. Also why don't we just completely scrap front wings while we're at it. They've clearly reached its peak now and no use to use them further. See how stupid that sounds?

But other teams will never be able to catch up now without spending millions for little gain. If the above is true as well, other Renault supplied teams have got no chance either because no matter what they do with there aero designs they won't have the map to match.

That's not really red bull's problem is it? Mercs have the power, renaults have the flexibility. Red bull had to spend millions on implementing their own double decker in 2009 to catch up with brawn. Or F-duct in 2010. So where's the problem? They were willing to do it, other teams clearly are not. You're seeing things one sided.
If you were willing to read the article, you would also know that other renault powered teams do not have sufficient platforms for such engine map.

[iotar__]

[About AMuS RB dominance theories]

This is shocking but they claim that RB's advantage is also because of tyres and working them in the optimal operating range by not-only-aerodynamics-genius Newey, clearly tyres are too important this season, this is not the F1 we want, all the wind-tunnels and it's all about tyres , changes have to be made. No, if it works to OUR advantage it's perfectly ok. The fact that there was a tyre change in the middle of the season (twice) helped too.

[Uninformed -->] The rest of it reminds me of Valencia 2012, when later caught these tricks turned out to be worth of mere hundreds of a second, I bet it's even less now .
[BTW didn't FIA have the chance to limit all the fiddling before 2012 season, with all the bodywork redirecting but since it was to RB's, McLaren's and Ferrari's advantage (Sauber's by accident) further playing with that was fine.]

[astracrazy]

It's clearly not a waste of resources if it's giving significant gains. Also why don't we just completely scrap front wings while we're at it. They've clearly reached its peak now and no use to use them further. See how stupid that sounds?

What are you on about now? FW's? Why? I don't think you get it

If you read what i said, i said it has now hit its height so teams will now have to spend millions for little gain. The smaller teams can't afford to waste there resources on that.

Thats how it works. When it is new they can spend millions and get a lot of gain from it. When it is well developed they have to spend even more for less.

That's not really red bull's problem is it? Mercs have the power, renaults have the flexibility. Red bull had to spend millions on implementing their own double decker in 2009 to catch up with brawn. Or F-duct in 2010. So where's the problem? They were willing to do it, other teams clearly are not. You're seeing things one sided.
If you were willing to read the article, you would also know that other renault powered teams do not have sufficient platforms for such engine map.

in bold = basically backs up my point other renault teams will never be able to catch up

How am i seeing things one sided? Because i'm not seeing it from a Red Bull fans POV but from a f1 fans? Your obviously a red bull fan and because your team has done the best with it you don't want it removed. I understand where your coming from but you need to see the bigger picture

The stance your taking you would never have any technology banned/removed then?

[Shrieker]

Isn't this discussion moot anyway ? The regulations for 2014 have been decided months ago, the exhaust has a single exit behind the rear wheel center line = EBD era over. Now let's move on.

[Juzh]

What I mean by FWs is that they are also developed almost as far as they can go, but teams are still throwing millions at them to gain maybe half a tenth or 1 tenth at best. Yet we're not scrapping them, only limiting/reducing their effectiveness next year. EBD on the other hand will cease to exist come 2014 after it has already been nerfed significantly.

I know things have to change, doesn't mean I have to agree with them, right? Name one single regulation change in last 4 years that wasn't aimed at reducing red bull's advantage other than F-duct . Shallower DDD, more and more stringent flexi wing tests, ban on exotic engine maps, ban on off-throttle blowing, ban on EBD all together.. list goes on.

[astracrazy]

What I mean by FWs is that they are also developed almost as far as they can go, but teams are still throwing millions at them to gain maybe half a tenth or 1 tenth at best. Yet we're not scrapping them, only limiting/reducing their effectiveness next year. EBD on the other hand will cease to exist come 2014 after it has already been nerfed significantly.

I know things have to change, doesn't mean I have to agree with them, right? Name one single regulation change in last 4 years that wasn't aimed at reducing red bull's advantage other than F-duct . Shallower DDD, more and more stringent flexi wing tests, ban on exotic engine maps, ban on off-throttle blowing, ban on EBD all together.. list goes on.

The FW's are more much more than you give them credit. They effect more or less the whole of the car which is why teams throw millions at them

I accept what your saying and see your point that the recent restrictions have been aimed at Red Bull. But thats credit to them.

I just don't think its always a bad thing having these expensive technologies removed and having a sort of reset it creates the gives the smaller teams a chance at least (and obviously opening doors for new ideas)

[LionKing]

Isn't it that at the beginning of the season FIA did not let RBR and Lotus use new maps for this 2013 season? Hence they had too use the few same reference maps declared after the mid 2012 clarification?

Perhaps my memory is playing tricks on me...

[spiritone]

Does the fia really have the expertise to monitor the maps or is this like benneton getting caught with traction control which they say they never used. The people who create these maps are obviously some of the most clever people in the paddock. Yes they all use the mandated ecu and they are all supposed to be using maps from the beginning of 2013 but with the miles of wiring in a f1 car can the fia really police this area? How many computers that supposedly have all the latest safeguards get hacked all the time. Renault has obviously figured out a way to have a form of legal traction control or something that controls wheel spin that is undetectable by tech. Unless merc or some other team figure this out quick this season is over (really it's over already).

[langwadt]

What I mean by FWs is that they are also developed almost as far as they can go, but teams are still throwing millions at them to gain maybe half a tenth or 1 tenth at best. Yet we're not scrapping them, only limiting/reducing their effectiveness next year. EBD on the other hand will cease to exist come 2014 after it has already been nerfed significantly.

I know things have to change, doesn't mean I have to agree with them, right? Name one single regulation change in last 4 years that wasn't aimed at reducing red bull's advantage other than F-duct . Shallower DDD, more and more stringent flexi wing tests, ban on exotic engine maps, ban on off-throttle blowing, ban on EBD all together.. list goes on.

The FW's are more much more than you give them credit. They effect more or less the whole of the car which is why teams throw millions at them


I accept what your saying and see your point that the recent restrictions have been aimed at Red Bull. But thats credit to them.

I just don't think its always a bad thing having these expensive technologies removed and having a sort of reset it creates the gives the smaller teams a chance at least (and obviously opening doors for new ideas)

the teams spend millions on extremely complicated FWs but it often it doesn't seem to have any much effect on
laptimes when parts fall off

without "resets" it is like the small teams are a lap down and the best they can hope for it to reach the same paces as
the big ones

[LionKing]

Does the fia really have the expertise to monitor the maps or is this like benneton getting caught with traction control which they say they never used.

I think it was launch control not traction control.

[Juzh]

Does the fia really have the expertise to monitor the maps or is this like benneton getting caught with traction control which they say they never used.

Nope, they dont. RB is clearly using some form of TC which has mysteriously eluded FIA's watch dogs and scrutineers.
/sarcasm

[turbof1]

Best footage so far showing the dangers of the lift:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HO91FVHIRY[/youtube]

I'd like to refer specifically to timeframe 0:22-0:25, where Webber comes running like a madman on the track while Rosberg just exited the corner.

(special thanks to f1fanatic member andea23 for the tip, and keith for the article)