2023 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Sep 22 - 24

[chrisc90]

The russel hamilton is touch and go. Russel understeered and was not alongside. As you can see with his front wheel tapping hamilton's rear.
No where close to max and lewis in brasil.
No further investigation in my book.

There was no contact between the two. I also wouldn't say there was understeer, given the corner is the wrong direction for running off the track. I think Russell just opened up the steering as he knew it wouldn't have ended well if he didnt.

[SiLo]

As usual, it appears they let things slide if its your own teammate, because at the end of the day you're only hurting your team, rather than a competitor.

I don't think it's right, and I was surprised Ham didn't get a 5s penalty for that move, but I don't have all the data that the stewards do.

[chrisc90]

As usual, it appears they let things slide if its your own teammate, because at the end of the day you're only hurting your team, rather than a competitor.

I don't think it's right, and I was surprised Ham didn't get a 5s penalty for that move, but I don't have all the data that the stewards do.

Its not just the only hurting your own team though. It makes it harder to pass a car ahead if your 5 or 10 seconds down the road, or if a penalty is applied at the end of the race, it could drop the offender down and promote others.

For example...IF Lewis got a 5 second penalty today, Sainz would have finished P5. If Lewis took the penalty at his pit stop - he might not have been ahead of Sainz or others after the pit stop.

The intra-team lack of punishment, does not help others in the slightest. Its just a absolute bonus if you commit a penalizable offence against your team mate as you get away with it, whereas if it was someone else, you wouldn't.

The rule needs to be changed. But I see what others said the other week when it happened and with the Perez/AT incident in Singapore.....your not going to send your 2 drivers and team personelle up there to argue against each other. In those cases, the stewards should be strong/man enough, to penalise without needing to her from the teams.

[AR3-GP]

As usual, it appears they let things slide if its your own teammate, because at the end of the day you're only hurting your team, rather than a competitor.

Teammates deserve the right to not have wrong doings by a teammate papered over by their employer. The FIA must act with indifference. It is absolutely insane the stuff some drivers have been able to get away with towards their own teammate. Australia with Alpine. Monza with Ferrari, etc.

[organic]

I think if we had the stewards policing teammate battles as they do any others, teams would simply govern every battle with orders. Even if it's not perfect sporting situation, it would imo be too much of a compromise for the show to change this

[ringo]

There was no penalty warranted though.
Russel was not run off track. He was not alongside. Now that we have seen the videos there is really nothing surprising to me.
Stewards did the right thing. Hamilton is not stupid he knows how to operate in the grey areas and he knows the regulations.
Just a good example of defending by positioning the car. Russel was not gonna be able to pass there.

[Sieper]

As usual, it appears they let things slide if its your own teammate, because at the end of the day you're only hurting your team, rather than a competitor.

Teammates deserve the right to not have wrong doings by a teammate papered over by their employer. The FIA must act with indifference. It is absolutely insane the stuff some drivers have been able to get away with towards their own teammate. Australia with Alpine. Monza with Ferrari, etc.

Yes. That requires the team to go in to the stewards and hurt itself (whichever driver, even both) you can’t really expect a team to do that. They will try to defend the act and certainly being both parties involved, will try something to get them both off the hook.

[TFSA]

Hamilton ran him of track similar to verstappen running Hamilton off in Brazil. Seems like people are applying the same inconsistency in evaluating the incidents based on their fan bias as the stewards do.

It seems to me that people are forgetting, that in 2021, they WERE driving under a different standard. The F1 Driving Standards Guidelines came into effect in 2022.

Therefore, you can't do direct comparisons between stewards decisions now, and stewards decisions before 2022.

[TFSA]

As usual, it appears they let things slide if its your own teammate, because at the end of the day you're only hurting your team, rather than a competitor.

I don't think it's right, and I was surprised Ham didn't get a 5s penalty for that move, but I don't have all the data that the stewards do.

I noted this on the Discord, but i actually think it is.

I'm not saying stewards should never punish teammates fighting if something egregious happens. But if they start applying penalties willy-nilly for teammates fighting, then you'll start seeing a lot of teams employing team orders not to fight to avoid picking up unnecessary penalties, and the races will become more of a procession with team mates either never overtaking each other, or teams constantly ordering one driver to yield.

This will make for far worse racing. So I think the current system of them taking a relaxed stance is the best.

[Juzh]

Nonsense. Two incidents are not similar.
Hamilton stayed on his line. MAX went off track to push of Lewis in Brasil.
Why dont someone post some gif or replays for it to be analyzed?

Unfortunately the replay of Lewis' onboard changes camera to the rear wing JUST as he's entering the corner.

Here is Russell's onboard.

Russell is on a shallower inside line for the last part of straight and is thus gaining ground of hamilton who has to cover more distance. He has wheels ahead coming into corner and the only reason hamilton is anywhere near alongside him in first part of spoon is because he brakes way too late from the very tight entry on the inside line. This is a very similar mentality as in Singapore (or spain in russel's case), just don't brake for a corner or attempt to slot in between cars, take an escape route, and then claim you were ahead.
Russell of all drivers prevented a collision here which would be entirely hamilton's fault.

[TFSA]

Russell is on a shallower inside line for the last part of straight and is thus gaining ground of hamilton who has to cover more distance. He has wheels ahead coming into corner and the only reason hamilton is anywhere near alongside him in first part of spoon is because he brakes way too late from the very tight entry on the inside line. This is a very similar mentality as in Singapore (or spain in russel's case), just don't brake for a corner or attempt to slot in between cars, take an escape route, and then claim you were ahead.
Russell of all drivers prevented a collision here which would be entirely hamilton's fault.

George got ahead of Lewis shortly, but he fell behind again just before they reached the apex.

However, overtaking guidelines for outside overtakes stipulate, that you have to be ahead "from" (!!) the apex. George wasn't. As such, he's not entitled to space.

[Sieper]

Russell is on a shallower inside line for the last part of straight and is thus gaining ground of hamilton who has to cover more distance. He has wheels ahead coming into corner and the only reason hamilton is anywhere near alongside him in first part of spoon is because he brakes way too late from the very tight entry on the inside line. This is a very similar mentality as in Singapore (or spain in russel's case), just don't brake for a corner or attempt to slot in between cars, take an escape route, and then claim you were ahead.
Russell of all drivers prevented a collision here which would be entirely hamilton's fault.

George got ahead of Lewis shortly, but he fell behind again just before they reached the apex.

However, overtaking guidelines for outside overtakes stipulate, that you have to be ahead "from" (!!) the apex. George wasn't. As such, he's not entitled to space.

Rules also say you have to drive between the white lines. Hamilton did not make the corner. He was determined to not get passed there.

[Juzh]

Russell is on a shallower inside line for the last part of straight and is thus gaining ground of hamilton who has to cover more distance. He has wheels ahead coming into corner and the only reason hamilton is anywhere near alongside him in first part of spoon is because he brakes way too late from the very tight entry on the inside line. This is a very similar mentality as in Singapore (or spain in russel's case), just don't brake for a corner or attempt to slot in between cars, take an escape route, and then claim you were ahead.
Russell of all drivers prevented a collision here which would be entirely hamilton's fault.

George got ahead of Lewis shortly, but he fell behind again just before they reached the apex.

However, overtaking guidelines for outside overtakes stipulate, that you have to be ahead "from" (!!) the apex. George wasn't. As such, he's not entitled to space.

Ive looked at all camera angles and cant see hamilton ahead anywhere apart from mentioned reason - too late braking. I will admit camera angles are scetchy so its hard to say for certain but based on overspeed from russell im quite sure he was ahead on entry, thus entitled to space.

[TFSA]

Ive looked at all camera angles and cant see hamilton ahead anywhere apart from mentioned reason - too late braking. I will admit camera angles are scetchy so its hard to say for certain but based on overspeed from russell im quite sure he was ahead on entry, thus entitled to space.

Again: When it's an overtake on the outside, you have to be ahead from the apex (read: at and after). That's not on corner entry. Entry is the judge for inside overtakes.

From the Discord (credit to RZS)

Rules also say you have to drive between the white lines. Hamilton did not make the corner. He was determined to not get passed there.

I'm pretty sure you're misreading that rule. The way i read that rule, and also based on stewards decisions supporting this, that's about making sure the car being overtaken (in this case Hamilton) isn't run off the track or squeezed.

[dialtone]

The driving guidelines say that stewards will consider being ahead or behind, among other factors, when determining ‘significant portion’. Anyone thinking that setting there to not require to leave space for the overtaking car is erasing a lot of precedent, from this year alone.

Somehow Monza 2019 should have been a penalty for Charles, or Monza this year with Charles and Perez. But here Russell is side by side and Ham would be allowed to just smash him?

Wat?