Model Scale - Windtunnels and Windshear

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
Froggolo
Froggolo
2
Joined: 18 Jan 2012, 16:19

Re: Ferrari F2012

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akh270 wrote:
radosav wrote:is it posible to put F1 car on open truck that transports cars, cover it with flow-viz and drive it on highway with constant speed?
That is so unbelievably stupid its genius! :shock: I mean that in a good way btw.

You could do it here in the states on, "The loneliest road in America".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_50_in_Nevada

hi

i don't know if you have knowledge about (the genious) Burt Rutan and his projects,
but, this way of testing is used by his team to check aero rensponse
of what they are developing
(it was done also to test some part of SpaceShipOne and 2)
so, at the end, could really be used if there are no limitations by FIA :D
Relax, man. Have an elliptical drink or something® ( bhallg2k )

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mep
29
Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
Location: Germany

Re: Ferrari F2012

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marcush. wrote:Has any team track heating in their belts in the tunnel or maybe overhead sunlight to investigate ambient variables
Actually the belts do heat up quite a lot by the friction. The friction is quite high because the belts have to be sucked down from beneath otherwise they would bend up especially with the low pressure caused by the floor.

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Chuckjr
38
Joined: 24 Feb 2012, 08:34
Location: USA

Re: Ferrari F2012

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I can't believe what I'm about to write but I can't resist....

They are finding and shutting down tunnels 200 feet below ground and 1 mile long built by hand by Mexican drug cartels to transport drugs under the border directly into the USA. This is happening often. If they can build these full service tunnels a mile long by hand with day laborers, you'd think Luca de Montezemolo could figure out a way to build a small test track or wind tunnel underground which offers natural sound proofing, and the ability to test 7 days a week just like the old days, and nobody would ever know.

The speculation in this forum is rubbing off on me. Maybe I'm entering into the brotherhood...Lololololol
Watching F1 since 1986.

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
35
Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Ferrari F2012

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amouzouris wrote:How can a MODEL be more accurate than using an ACTUAL CAR??? the actual car is what you race so even if the model car is closer to the cad drawings...
This is not about the accuracy of the model. It is about the accuracy of the tunnel trying to measure a 100% size F1 car. The size of the test area is the trouble. The walls create issues. A 60% tunnel handles these issue more effectively and provides more accurate results.

This paper out lines the wall issues.

http://thinktech.lib.ttu.edu/ttu-ir/bit ... sequence=1

Feel free to provide contradicting information. I am up for learning something new today.

Brian

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JackHammer
4
Joined: 03 May 2011, 01:53
Location: Gloucester

Re: Ferrari F2012

Post

akh270 wrote:
radosav wrote:is it posible to put F1 car on open truck that transports cars, cover it with flow-viz and drive it on highway with constant speed?
That is so unbelievably stupid its genius! :shock: I mean that in a good way btw.

You could do it here in the states on, "The loneliest road in America".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_50_in_Nevada
Wouldn't the truck in front of the car disrupt the airflow?
Image

Crucial_Xtreme
Crucial_Xtreme
404
Joined: 16 Oct 2011, 00:13
Location: Charlotte

Re: Ferrari F2012

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hardingfv32 wrote:
This is not about the accuracy of the model. It is about the accuracy of the tunnel trying to measure a 100% size F1 car. The size of the test area is the trouble. The walls create issues. A 60% tunnel handles these issue more effectively and provides more accurate results.

This paper out lines the wall issues.

http://thinktech.lib.ttu.edu/ttu-ir/bit ... sequence=1

Feel free to provide contradicting information. I am up for learning something new today.

Brian
Brian that is Texas Tech, and is also over 10yrs old. Technology & construction have come a long way since then. I mean surely you would stipulate that tunnels built 10 years ago are not quite as advanced as the ones now.
You're right, the walls can create issues, but this is not a given. Teams would certainly test at 1:1 if they could, but the FIA mandated 50% to save costs, then allowed 60%, the same way they would test at full speed if they could.

In the beginnnig, wind tunnel tests were carried out using small models of 1/8th to 1/6th scale, with the tyres fixed and resting on a solid surface. In the mid-70s, the Lotus team started testing on a "moving road plane," which was basically a conveyor belt under the chassis, with the wheels rotating. This simulated the passage of the road under the car.

The results were more accurate than the fixed-wheels/no-moving-road wind tunnels. So what people say, the car is still standing still. True, but as Albert Einstein said, all motion is relative to the observer. In other words, air doesn't care if it's being whooshed past a model or the model is moving through the air, the same displacement happens either way.

The next advancement came in the size of the models. From the 1/8th scale, they went to 1/4 scale, 1/2 scale and possibly 2/3 scale. Teams sometimes even test full-scale cars in the wind tunnel, if they have one large enough.

The reason for this is the "scale factor." As you scale things up, the aerodyamic forces on the model increase exponentially. That includes the "unexpected" forces that can trip up a hypothetically good design when it is built full-scale. The closer you get to full size, the more apparent these unexpected forces become and the more accurate the tests are. <-- What Scarbs mentioned.

In the end, the aim of wind tunnel testing is not so much accurate numbers as a general idea of how the car will perform, and the percent of improvement a change makes over the baseline model.

The bottom line is the closer you get to 1:1 the more likely you are to know or have a better understanding of how the car works & will work when new parts are added. Again if teams could use 1:1 & if they could test at full speed, they most certainly would.

munudeges
munudeges
-14
Joined: 10 Jun 2011, 17:08

Re: Ferrari F2012

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Hail22 wrote:A business colleague of mine informed me that he has heard a Formula 1 car on the Maranello circuit and mentioned the entire boundary of the track was covered with black tarpolan to prevent people seeing in.
That shouldn't come as a great shock to anyone.
So an F1 car on the Maranello circuit, has to be the F10 correct?
Why would it have to be a F10? No one can see in.

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Ferrari F2012

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munudeges wrote: ...
So an F1 car on the Maranello circuit, has to be the F10 correct?
Why would it have to be a F10? No one can see in.
Moreover, why would they go through the trouble to hide running an F10?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

timbo
timbo
111
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Ferrari F2012

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xpensive wrote:
munudeges wrote: ...
So an F1 car on the Maranello circuit, has to be the F10 correct?
Why would it have to be a F10? No one can see in.
Moreover, why would they go through the trouble to hide running an F10?
There's a whole bunch of prototype production cars being spied there.
You seriously think a wall would stop rival teams from finding out about "secret" tests?
I'm 95% certain your account is demonically possessed by autogyro.

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FakeAlonso
1
Joined: 08 Mar 2012, 16:53

Re: Ferrari F2012

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Chuckjr wrote:I can't believe what I'm about to write but I can't resist....

They are finding and shutting down tunnels 200 feet below ground and 1 mile long built by hand by Mexican drug cartels to transport drugs under the border directly into the USA. This is happening often. If they can build these full service tunnels a mile long by hand with day laborers, you'd think Luca de Montezemolo could figure out a way to build a small test track or wind tunnel underground which offers natural sound proofing, and the ability to test 7 days a week just like the old days, and nobody would ever know.

The speculation in this forum is rubbing off on me. Maybe I'm entering into the brotherhood...Lololololol
We should suggest this to the team. :)

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Ferrari F2012

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Pssst. You didn't get this from me.

;)

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: Ferrari F2012

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hardingfv32 wrote:
amouzouris wrote:How can a MODEL be more accurate than using an ACTUAL CAR??? the actual car is what you race so even if the model car is closer to the cad drawings...
This is not about the accuracy of the model. It is about the accuracy of the tunnel trying to measure a 100% size F1 car. The size of the test area is the trouble. The walls create issues. A 60% tunnel handles these issue more effectively and provides more accurate results.

This paper out lines the wall issues.

http://thinktech.lib.ttu.edu/ttu-ir/bit ... sequence=1

Feel free to provide contradicting information. I am up for learning something new today.

Brian
Fundamental issues are there regardless of size. You can have a 60% scale tunnel that's crap, a 60% tunnel that's good, a 100% tunnel that's crap, or a 100% tunnel that's good.

To make a blanket statement that 60% tunnels are awesome and highly accurate and a 100% scale tunnel will never be as good, is just silly.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

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Pierce89
60
Joined: 21 Oct 2009, 18:38

Re: Ferrari F2012

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Jersey Tom wrote:
hardingfv32 wrote:
amouzouris wrote:How can a MODEL be more accurate than using an ACTUAL CAR??? the actual car is what you race so even if the model car is closer to the cad drawings...
This is not about the accuracy of the model. It is about the accuracy of the tunnel trying to measure a 100% size F1 car. The size of the test area is the trouble. The walls create issues. A 60% tunnel handles these issue more effectively and provides more accurate results.

This paper out lines the wall issues.

http://thinktech.lib.ttu.edu/ttu-ir/bit ... sequence=1

Feel free to provide contradicting information. I am up for learning something new today.

Brian
Fundamental issues are there regardless of size. You can have a 60% scale tunnel that's crap, a 60% tunnel that's good, a 100% tunnel that's crap, or a 100% tunnel that's good.

To make a blanket statement that 60% tunnels are awesome and highly accurate and a 100% scale tunnel will never be as good, is just silly.
I'd say a Penske employee ought to be a good source for info. So, I,m agreeing with JT. :D
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
35
Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Ferrari F2012

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Jersey Tom wrote:Fundamental issues are there regardless of size. You can have a 60% scale tunnel that's crap, a 60% tunnel that's good, a 100% tunnel that's crap, or a 100% tunnel that's good.

To make a blanket statement that 60% tunnels are awesome and highly accurate and a 100% scale tunnel will never be as good, is just silly.
The fundamental issue are easier to manage in a 60% tunnel. That is fact.

A more specific generalization just for you:

Todays 'best' tunnel designed to test a 60% F1 model provides more accurate results when developing a current F1 car than the 'best' current tunnel designed to test a 100% F1 car/model.

Brian

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
35
Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Ferrari F2012

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Pierce89 wrote:I'd say a Penske employee ought to be a good source for info. So, I,m agreeing with JT. :D
Then where is the info? I am ready to learn something.

Brian