2012 Brazilian GP - Interlagos

[bhall]

That's great and all, but nobody was talking about engine changes in that regard. The question was about Vettel's engine status for Brazilian Grand Prix, not within the Brazilian Grand Prix.

The issue was basically off topic and I only mentioned it because an inaccuracy was reported about the sporting regulations. The important fact is that Red Bull in any case can use whatever engine they want for the qualifying and race in Brazil because it is the last race.

But, by the way, since when are cars in parc fermé at any time other than from the moment they leave the pits for Q1 until the start of the race? What's all this Friday business about?

Cars are in parc ferme as well after the race until scrutineering and fitting of seals is done by the FiA. About the Friday business: For all other races except the last race there is a usual practise by the teams to fit old engines that will not be used for further races for FP1 and FP2 (Friday sessions). Those engines are then swapped out for the proper qualifying and race engine typically for FP3. Very seldom a team will change to the race engine after FP3 has started. That usually only happens when a fault is detected in an engine that was ear marked and fitted for the race.

Discussion of engine usage for the Brazilian Grand Prix has no better place than the Brazilian Grand Prix thread, yanno?

I'm afraid the inaccuracy was yours. The question was about how many engines Vettel has left, which, as was pointed out, is immaterial, because he always has eight engines from which to choose. That is, of course, unless one of them has been disqualified because it was replaced while the car was in parc fermé. In that case, he would then only have seven engines available, in accordance with the rule you so helpfully pointed out.

Otherwise, contrary to your stated position, Red Bull is free to change engines on Vettel's car whenever they like. If so inclined, they could use Engine W for FP1, Engine X for FP2, Engine Y for FP3, and Engine Z for qualifying, and that would be A-OK even if each one of those engines had been used a dozen times before. Problems would only arise if the team decided to switch from Engine Z to Engine [whatever] after qualifying, before the race. (Post-race parc fermé isn't really an ideal time to change engines, nor would doing so then be especially beneficial. Lucky for the teams, though, post-race parc fermé doesn't encompass the entire time between grands prix, else there'd be a whole heap of teams in trouble. Can you imagine that line of people waiting to see Charlie?)

Beyond all that, the only reason why the rule you pointed out doesn't bother to apply itself for the last race of the season is because the penalty for an "illegal" change from one "legal" engine to another "legal" engine is but the loss of the engine that was replaced, which doesn't really matter in the off-season. That's a sensible exclusion, if you ask me.

So, Red Schneider, to finally answer your question...wait, what was it again?

[CHT]

I am willing to bet he will be a bag of nerves, he has everything to lose, Alonso has nothing. Vettel has never been in that situation before, Alonso has been here several times.

I rest my case. I'm not going to argue opinion.

Rest your case on what? What decisive point have you made that allows you to rest your case?

You gave your opinion and I gave mine, we will see whose opinion is closer to the mark this weekend.

Vettel is having a 13 point lead and he knows that as long as he finishe on the podium he will have it in the bag regardless of what happen to Alonso. The only worries he has of course is dnf and that is something beyond his control and as a driver you don't waste your time on things like that, you give the team the benefit of doubt that they will deliver what is necessary to win the championship.

As for Alonso, he will be under pressure by the fact that he needs to finish up in the podium or else the wdc is over, and to do this in front of the Brazilian fans. A quick massa is on the card for this weekend and I won't be surprise of another gearbox change for him

[raymondu999]

Personally I don't think Vettel will be feeling any sort of pinch too much. IMO the biggest confusion for him would be to think whether he goes for the percentage game or for the win. The question becomes magnified in the wet - because at that point he most probably definitely cannot just stay in P4.

To be honest right now I think the Red Bull is underrated in the wet, and the Ferrari slightly overrated. The last competitive wet session in Hockenheim qualifying went to Ferrari - but it was very close, despite a Vettel mistake, and the Ferrari bolting on a fresh set of inters mid-Q3.

Rain could mix things up - but I don't think (in terms of Red Bull vs Ferrari) it will mix things up as much as people think it will. Nor in terms of the title race.

[CHT]

Personally I don't think Vettel will be feeling any sort of pinch too much. IMO the biggest confusion for him would be to think whether he goes for the percentage game or for the win. The question becomes magnified in the wet - because at that point he most probably definitely cannot just stay in P4.

To be honest right now I think the Red Bull is underrated in the wet, and the Ferrari slightly overrated. The last competitive wet session in Hockenheim qualifying went to Ferrari - but it was very close, despite a Vettel mistake, and the Ferrari bolting on a fresh set of inters mid-Q3.

Rain could mix things up - but I don't think (in terms of Red Bull vs Ferrari) it will mix things up as much as people think it will. Nor in terms of the title race.

There are 6 WDCs and several aggressive south amerians drivers.. When it rains, the race will be wide open, it will not be just Vettel or Alonso.

[raymondu999]

Why single out aggressive drivers, and South Americans?

Apologies mate - I don't really understand your post.

[CHT]

Why single out aggressive drivers, and South Americans?

Apologies mate - I don't really understand your post.

Brazil will be like home race for these guys and having so many passionate fans around I am sure they will be highly charged to do well .

[KATO]

A thriller till the end-!!

[WhiteBlue]

Discussion of engine usage for the Brazilian Grand Prix has no better place than the Brazilian Grand Prix thread, yanno?
I'm afraid the inaccuracy was yours. The question was about how many engines Vettel has left, which, as was pointed out, is immaterial, because he always has eight engines from which to choose. That is, of course, unless one of them has been disqualified because it was replaced while the car was in parc fermé. In that case, he would then only have seven engines available, in accordance with the rule you so helpfully pointed out.

Otherwise, contrary to your stated position, Red Bull is free to change engines on Vettel's car whenever they like. If so inclined, they could use Engine W for FP1, Engine X for FP2, Engine Y for FP3, and Engine Z for qualifying, and that would be A-OK even if each one of those engines had been used a dozen times before. Problems would only arise if the team decided to switch from Engine Z to Engine [whatever] after qualifying, before the race. (Post-race parc fermé isn't really an ideal time to change engines, nor would doing so then be especially beneficial. Lucky for the teams, though, post-race parc fermé doesn't encompass the entire time between grands prix, else there'd be a whole heap of teams in trouble. Can you imagine that line of people waiting to see Charlie?)

Beyond all that, the only reason why the rule you pointed out doesn't bother to apply itself for the last race of the season is because the penalty for an "illegal" change from one "legal" engine to another "legal" engine is but the loss of the engine that was replaced, which doesn't really matter in the off-season. That's a sensible exclusion, if you ask me.

So, Red Schneider, to finally answer your question...wait, what was it again?

Oh my. So much ado about nothing to come to the conclusion that was already reached one page higher up. In the last race every engine is allowed - absolutely no restrictions. To answer the question which engine they will likely use we would need access to a spreadsheet. Perhaps our friend ESPImperium has done one. He used to in the past.

[KATO]

There are 6 WDCs and several aggressive south amerians drivers.. When it rains, the race will be wide open, it will not be just Vettel or Alonso.

Some one once said that being agressive when you drive is the only way to race that if you see a gap and not fight for the gap then you are no longer racing. It is perhaps a Latin American trait.... But i dont think they are unsafe if thats what tou mean?? Grosjean is unsafe.. Maldonado perhaps.. Those are TWO individuals who DO NOT represent their collective Continent's just to be clear.. Well even then both seem to have learned from their mistakes.. In any event I hope you mean it in a positive way. I do believe Massa ,Maldonado ,Perez ,Senna... Will give us a strong showing.. After all Brazil is where we honor Our Racing spirit the same agressive Nature that Drove Ayrton to greatness-!! This Championship Finaly will be Amazing-!!

Just wanted to add the circuit of the Americas was a great Home Eace for all Latinos with all having a large fan base of each's country-!! Also yeah I think all Races in the Americas have proven to be a Home Race for all Latinos passion does drive us.. Like it did Ayrton Senna..

[raymondu999]

Oh my. So much ado about nothing to come to the conclusion that was already reached one page higher up. In the last race every engine is allowed - absolutely no restrictions. To answer the question which engine they will likely use we would need access to a spreadsheet. Perhaps our friend ESPImperium has done one. He used to in the past.

Yes - but even in race 1 to 19, you don't have to use engines in sequence. You could fit engine 8 in race 8, then revert to engine 1 for race 9.

[bhall]

Oh my. So much ado about nothing to come to the conclusion that was already reached one page higher up. In the last race every engine is allowed - absolutely no restrictions. To answer the question which engine they will likely use we would need access to a spreadsheet. Perhaps our friend ESPImperium has done one. He used to in the past.

I wouldn't say it's much ado about nothing. After all, we established that this...

Actually they may not rotate an engine in as you put it unless it is for Friday practise or the last race.

...is wrong, because nothing prevents a team from changing engines on Saturday morning, nor, as Ray said, is there a specified order to their use, and that's something, don't you think? We've made the forum, and this thread in particular, a bit more just and reasonable.

[RB7ate9]

Edited because: Irrelevant Post.

[KATO]

Edited because: Irrelevant Post.

Tell us about engine 3 perhaps??

[WhiteBlue]

...is wrong, because nothing prevents a team from changing engines on Saturday morning, nor, as Ray said, is there a specified order to their use, and that's something, don't you think? We've made the forum, and this thread in particular, a bit more just and reasonable.

another one of your opinions and inaccuracies.
There is a difference between the last race and all other races. The difference is spelled out in §28.4.e. It really does not belong in this thread but as long as people tell untrue statements about the regulations it is worth pointing out that they are wrong. If you think that teams can re use an engine which was taken out and replaced by another one for a qualifying or race during the races weekends 2-19 you are also wrong. Its prohibited. I can only offer to discuss this issue in a separate thread because it isn't applicable to the Brazilian GP 2012 in Interlagos.

[siskue2005]

Personally I don't think Vettel will be feeling any sort of pinch too much. IMO the biggest confusion for him would be to think whether he goes for the percentage game or for the win. The question becomes magnified in the wet - because at that point he most probably definitely cannot just stay in P4.

I think he should go for win, percentage game is risky as we witnessed in 2007, 2008 and 2010
He should go all out in quly and do the race as it unfolds and always cover the leading pack, not Alonso ( lesson learned from 2010).