2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

[Pieoter]

IIRC the car will make roughly the same power from 10,000rpm to 15,000rpm due to the fuel flow limit. So you can have a 5000rpm rev drop for almost no performance loss.

F1 tyre have a radius of 660mm (as per regs).

So with a final drive of 4.0
1st gear = 3.75 ~ 123km/h
2nd gear = 2.5 ~ 185km/h (5000rpm rev drop)
3rd gear = 1.67 ~ 278km/h (4980 rpm rev drop)
4th gear = 1.12 ~ ~414km/h (4940 rpm rev drop)
5th gear = .75 ~ 619km/h (4955rpm rev drop)

Based on this, I don't see them having any issue with 8 fixed gear ratios for the whole year.

P.S Its 1am so don't flame if i've missed something

[Andres125sx]

Of course improvements to a cars performance from aero design will be negated by fixed gear ratios chosen for a less effective aero package, this is just basics.

This is just basics..... when your gear ratios are optimized, but they´re NOT going to be optimized in 2014 because they´re going to be the same for the whole seasson, so they will be way too long for any track except Monza so any improvement in the car will be an improvement.

You were negating any improvement will be an improvement because of the fixed gear ratios, but if you improve your downfoce, and we assume the top speed does not change, the car will improve. Let´s imagine the top speed does not improve, but the cornering speed will thanks to the higher downforce, so the car improve even when the top speed does not, (what you were negating).This is just basics

[Andres125sx]

Maybe I didn´t express it correctly, I was showing two scenarios: 1: they improve the drag, so the top speed is increased. 2: They improve the downforce but don´t increase the drag, so the cornering speed will be faster and the top speed will increase too.

If you consider any downforce improvement also increases the drag, then it will depend on the ammount or ratio between both of them, so you can´t say for sure what will happen in that case...

Any downforce improvement always comes with drag. Just adding downforce will limit top speed and acceleration due the extra. You can improve it by substituting low L/D element by improvements in higher L/D areas. However, in practice this is very difficult. Teams ussually prefer to have more downforce then less drag.

They usually prefer it, but that does not mean drag improvement does not exist. Even when downforce improvements are more usual, drag improvements does already exist

Any downforce improvement will improve cornering speed. However, running more downforce means a lower top speed, in which case you'll want to adjust your ratio's, and vice versa. To simplify: you have a top speed limit imposed by the drag, and a top speed limit by the ratio's (hitting rev limiter). You want to match those for optimum acceleration and speed. Concerning top speed there is no benefit shedding drag while you are hitting the limiter.

You´re missing the main point here, next seasson they will only hit the limiter in Monza, so your reasoning does not apply.

For the whole seasson except Monza, the cars will race with too long gear ratios, so the the speed limit will always be imposed by the drag, wich is the main reason I said DRS will be much more effective next seasson so overtaking will be a lot easier. Today they hit the top speed limit imposed by the drag with DRS closed, but when they open DRS then they hit the top speed limit imposed by the limiter. Next seasson that will never happen, only in Monza, so anytime they open DRS, the top speed difference between cars with DRS open or closed will be a lot higher than today

That´s also the reason I said next seasson they could use ERS to improve top speed, and not only to improve acceleration like they use it today, because drag will be the most limiting factor, so when they´re hitting the top speed limit imposed by the drag, if they hit the ERS button, the top speed will increase

[strad]

For the whole seasson except Monza, the cars will race with too long gear ratios, so the the speed limit will always be imposed by the drag, wich is the main reason I said DRS will be much more effective next seasson so overtaking will be a lot easier. Today they hit the top speed limit imposed by the drag with DRS closed, but when they open DRS then they hit the top speed limit imposed by the limiter.

I think I see your reasoning and I give it a qualified thumbs up.

[Tommy Cookers]

@ Andres
there is of course no ERS button
but a restricted amount of mapping of accelerator-to-driveshaft torque relationships
that require EM torque continuously with ICE torque

[turbof1]

For the whole seasson except Monza, the cars will race with too long gear ratios, so the the speed limit will always be imposed by the drag, wich is the main reason I said DRS will be much more effective next seasson so overtaking will be a lot easier. Today they hit the top speed limit imposed by the drag with DRS closed, but when they open DRS then they hit the top speed limit imposed by the limiter. Next seasson that will never happen, only in Monza, so anytime they open DRS, the top speed difference between cars with DRS open or closed will be a lot higher than today

That's actually a very good point. With all the talk about aerodynamics I guess I lost sight on that. The fuel flow limiter and huge amount of torque too make it a bit more comfortable concerning gearing.

DRS will be better anyhow: a larger part of the flap (I believe 70mm instead of 50mm) will be allowed to open. Though also have to note that the rear wing will be shallower. So you'll shed more of the lesser total, if that makes any sense.

The ERS's next year are complicated. Rules are in such a way set up that you can either use it as part of your basic power, or use a lot more of it in a smaller timeframe, sacrificing power before and/or after. With input of Mgu-k being limited at 2MJ and 4MJ being the maximum output for 33,33 seconds, there are a number of ways to use this. The mgu-h is free of such restrictions, and will probably be used as basic power support all the time. Do note that the 4MJ is for 33,33s is quite a lot, because you'll be only using it when on throttle. That means for a qualifying lap on monaco you will not be able to use the full 4MJ. Of course, on a circuit like Monza you will have to allocate it for maximum efficiency, so more acceleration-based instead of top-speed based.

Mind you that we also have no idea how much torque next year's tyres can handle. It's an extra factor in the acceleration/top speed question.

[Juzh]

Jenson Button:

“Winter testing at Jerez is going to be hilarious,” Button says after trying out the car in the simulator. “It will be cold, the tyres aren’t going to work, the cars probably won’t work either and when you do get a lap it is probably going to feel weird because you are running higher gears – you get into eighth gear before you get to seventh gear now."

Implying super-short gears or just faster accelerating cars?

[dragosmp]

The ERS's next year are complicated. Rules are in such a way set up that you can either use it as part of your basic power, or use a lot more of it in a smaller timeframe, sacrificing power before and/or after. With input of Mgu-k being limited at 2MJ and 4MJ being the maximum output for 33,33 seconds, there are a number of ways to use this. The mgu-h is free of such restrictions, and will probably be used as basic power support all the time. Do note that the 4MJ is for 33,33s is quite a lot, because you'll be only using it when on throttle. That means for a qualifying lap on monaco you will not be able to use the full 4MJ. Of course, on a circuit like Monza you will have to allocate it for maximum efficiency, so more acceleration-based instead of top-speed based.

Mind you that we also have no idea how much torque next year's tyres can handle. It's an extra factor in the acceleration/top speed question.

The 2MJ/4MJ is not an ERS K restriction, it's on the battery. As far as I've read the K can consume as much as it pleases as long as the electricity is supplied by the H-in generator mode. Agreed with qualifying analysis, but it i valid only if the H doesn't work in motor mode at all (thus consuming from the battery) and without accounting for the free energy produced by the H and sent towards the K.
About the gearbox...I was thinking that because of the high ICE torque, high K torque and no/little blown diffuser there may be already enough torque to reach the tire's limits and thus allow using longer low gears. As such the gearbox may be designed in such a way that on a track like Monaco you don't even get all the way to 6th/7th/8th. I may be exaggerating, but why not just 2-5 in Monaco and leave the other gears for the tracks that need them. This way you'd size the 5th/6th for Monaco and 8th for Monza w/DRS. Again, it might not be that simple, but I expect to see 8th used on very few tracks next year, unless some team decides to sacrifice Monza and Spa for an advantage on mid-speed tracks like BCN.
I'm thinking this would be the case because with a car like the Impreza, tiny motor big turbo, if it had an ERSH to launch the turbo I could just use gears 1/3/5 or 2/4/5, or in an ideal world the gears would be longer as there would be no need to change gears every 0.5s. The only reason one would need close gears is to keep the turbo spooled, but on the PU this is taken care of by the H.

*Edit: typo

[turbof1]

I have reread it and I have to say you are right - the limits are on the energy store. To make it more complicated: the ERS' are allowed to feed eachother energy directly without first storing it. So the mguk could be harvesting energy under braking and send that energy to the mguh to spool the turbo, avoiding use of the ES.

The tactical approach to full use of the 4MJ still stands though. Just that it gets a lot more difficult to get a clear sight.

EDIT: so, if I am getting this right, the mguk will feed the mguh under braking and any excess energy will be send to the ES (only so much energy is needed to spool the turbo). During at the power, excess power from the turbo will be send to the mguh, which will feed the mguk right? So as I see it, the mguh will not be sending power to the ES, with all energy directly consumed unless the driver specifies to have a portion of that energy be stored on the ES?

How much energy can you roughly realistically harvest with the mguk?

[Mr.G]

Maybe it's already there but anyway - is there rule by which they can not shift like 1-3-5-7-8 on the fast tracks and on the slow tracks 1-2-3-4-5-6? Or similar?

[dren]

How much energy can you roughly realistically harvest with the mguk?

The limit is 2MJ/lap MGUK->ES but that is bottle necked by the 120kw limit in/out on the MGUK. With the amount of time the cars see braking and figuring the MGUK will absorb all 100% of brake energy (which it most certainly will not) it only nets around 1MJ/lap. It will be much less than that with brake bias.

[Holm86]

How much energy can you roughly realistically harvest with the mguk?

The limit is 2MJ/lap MGUK->ES but that is bottle necked by the 120kw limit in/out on the MGUK. With the amount of time the cars see braking and figuring the MGUK will absorb all 100% of brake energy (which it most certainly will not) it only nets around 1MJ/lap. It will be much less than that with brake bias.

I don't think you can look at it directly like that. Because it takes a hell of a lot more than 120 Kw to stop the car. So even with the brake bias there should still be 120 Kw for the MGU-K to harvest.

And 2MJ with 120 Kw harvest is done in 16.66 sec. I don't know how much time of a lap is pure braking but I think its due able.

[turbof1]

Don't forget that the mguk will be delivering power to the mguh to spooling the turbo under braking, which will not go to the ES. Realistically the mguk needs to harvest more then 2MJ to get everything out of a normal lap. The mgu-h will barely contribute anything to the ES. Perhaps a very tiny bit just when braking starts. In a perfect world you want the mgu-h not take anything from the ES, either relying on exhaust gasses or the mguk to spool the turbo, and the mguk harvesting enough to get 2MJ plus enough energy to let the mguh spool the turbo (to negate turbo lag when getting back on the power).

[Holm86]

Don't forget that the mguk will be delivering power to the mguh to spooling the turbo under braking, which will not go to the ES. Realistically the mguk needs to harvest more then 2MJ to get everything out of a normal lap. The mgu-h will barely contribute anything to the ES. Perhaps a very tiny bit just when braking starts. In a perfect world you want the mgu-h not take anything from the ES, either relying on exhaust gasses or the mguk to spool the turbo, and the mguk harvesting enough to get 2MJ plus enough energy to let the mguh spool the turbo (to negate turbo lag when getting back on the power).

The MGU-H starts harvesting just at soon as the turbo reaches maximum boost.

[dren]

How much energy can you roughly realistically harvest with the mguk?

The limit is 2MJ/lap MGUK->ES but that is bottle necked by the 120kw limit in/out on the MGUK. With the amount of time the cars see braking and figuring the MGUK will absorb all 100% of brake energy (which it most certainly will not) it only nets around 1MJ/lap. It will be much less than that with brake bias.

I don't think you can look at it directly like that. Because it takes a hell of a lot more than 120 Kw to stop the car. So even with the brake bias there should still be 120 Kw for the MGU-K to harvest.

And 2MJ with 120 Kw harvest is done in 16.66 sec. I don't know how much time of a lap is pure braking but I think its due able.

Yeah, I worded that wrong. I was using some braking times that WB (I think) posted, figuring the full 120kw would be harvested.

The energy is there, the 120kw just puts a hamper on it.