Ferrari's carbon rim ring

[Sawtooth-spike]

Manchild your diagram is what is in the image.
Can somebody just confirm that they only use them in Qualifying?

The question Really is why have the teams not kicked off about it?

I like the new 2006 Flexi rules.

[manchild]

They used it in race too and it can be seen even on TV.

http://www.velikanagrada.com/images/slike/sm/sm1.jpg

BTW, check the rest of high res gallery from Imola here http://www.velikanagrada.com/adm1n/prik ... Vesti=1414

(it is not in English so below "Galerija" click on links "Slika" 1-15)

BTW, 2006 regs are flexible but only one way

[Sawtooth-spike]

I think ferrari read our forum

if you go back a few months on our forum i will find this topic (thanks manchild)

"Increasing Down force through Rotation of wheels"
viewtopic.php?t=1627&start=0&postdays=0 ... light=dogs

Cus we mention that the ramming the air into the tyres would be a great for cooling. Maybe they were looking though google and found us

But seriosely though we all agreed in the past that fan in the wheels are illegal, now i know the rims are not fans, but they are getting close

[Mikey_s]

This is a very interesting debate and I don't really have a good feeling about this continued discomfort regarding where the rules start and finish. I have posted a thread about this before - with no concensus about when good interpretation becomes cheating.

Several of you might have read (and participated in) some of the earlier threads, I suspect that at least part of the issue relates to the flexibility of english as a language.

For example; I could argue that the device does not constitute a moveable aerodynamic device because it cannot be moved - it is glued in place (in my interpretation moveable would mean that someone , driver or mechanic, could move the device). Others might say that that it is a moveable device because it moves with the wheel - well on that basis the wings are moveable devices as they move with the vehicle... so where does that leave us? Furthermore, I haven't seen any one yet argue that the device is an aero part - it doesn't seem to generate any directional force, so I guess it isn't covered by those regs. As far as I understand it is is designed to assist with brake cooling.

I still don't know precisely how the device actually works (would be grateful for any explanation of that... !), but another example of the flexibility in interpretation would be that Ferrari could argue it does not infringe the compositional rules because the wheel IS made of metal, this device is not part of the wheel, it is part of the braking system... but I cannot understand why Ferrari don't just ask BBS to cast the wheel with the slots and flange built in - regulatory problem solved, but nothing has changed in practice... does that mean it's still cheating??

Just my thoughts...

[manchild]

How it works... Here comes the Gospel by manchild

Ferrari introduced ducts (real ducts) that reach all the way to wheel flange therefore outer opening of the wheel became bigger than necessary so they've added carbon ring in order to improve aerodynamic efficiency of rear wheels. They say that it is part of the braking system only to justify it but its only function is to improve aerodynamic efficiency of the rear wheels and thereby whole car in general.

Why isn't BBS making that in one piece with the rest of the wheel? Because magnesium elements thinner than 3 mm are banned by FIA regulations and since magnesium is heavier that would decrease braking performance since wheels would be heavier (that includes worse including acceleration, car handling and greater tyre wear).
Movable aero is considered to be such if it is (can be) movable by driver as you said but also by air stream/pressure, vibrations/oscilations or automatically by some device.

Since Ferrari claims that ring isn’t part of the wheel but part of the braking system it becomes movable aero because it has aerodynamic influence and it doesn't just rotate in one axle but also changes angle of rotation following the suspension movement. If real duct that reaches all the way to flange is static than how can this ring that rotates be called extension of duct or whatever when except the material it has nothing to do with braking system.

[Mikey_s]

MC,

lookiong through the regs I'm not sure I agree with some of your comment;

The wheel width and overal diameter are fixed by the regs and B/S don't make custom diameter tyres for Ferrari, so I'm not sure how your statement about the wheel opening can be correct.

Please point me towards the bit in the regs about magnesium thinner than 3mm, because a search for magnesium in the regs only lists it as a banned compoent in engines and the only place 3mm appeards in in relation to thickness of rubber for bump stops.

I can understand the issue relating to weight of the wheels, although from the pics I've seen the Ferrari wheel must already be lighter than most because it has ducts in the rim, so probably it would all even out in the end...?

I'm still not sure about precisely the device is doing - it is clear that Ferrari were (one of??) the first to design the shrouded hub, and also clear that the shroud has got bigger this year, so there is something going on with the brakes - and a thread I posted a while back outlines that dumping heat is a huge challenge. Given the vents in the wheel rim I suspect they are somehow getting a higher airflow through the disc and dumping it out through the wheel rim as well as the centre, I'd like to see some close-up pics of the rim in action and at the end of the race to see where all the CF dust ends up... that'll tell you whether the device is an aero part, or braking. I guess we'll see at Montreal.... towards the end of the race.

My sense is that it really is something to do with braking - I don't think it is aero there, but I cannot yet understandd how it works.

As a final point I think there is a potential safety issue here - it'd better be glued on very well as those wheels take a helluva pounding, especially at Imola and you can imagine a frisbee shaped hoop of CF decapitating a few people if it flew off into the crowd... another reason to ask BBS to cast it.

[manchild]

ARTICLE 15: CAR CONSTRUCTION

15.1.1 The use of magnesium sheet less than 3mm thick is forbidden.

It's been so since 1955 and tragedy in Le Mans.

I agree about safety issue too and that is why all from of hub caps and wheel covers are banned by basic FIA safety regulations.

[Apex]

My sense is that it really is something to do with braking - I don't think it is aero there, but I cannot yet understandd how it works.

Is airflow through breaks not aero? The CF flange in all probably aid airflow. Is airflow not aero? Sure i doubt its downforce but its still aero....

[tpe]

Then, the suspension arms are illigal... And Stewart did introduced them, remember?

[Tp]

My sense is that it really is something to do with braking - I don't think it is aero there, but I cannot yet understandd how it works.

Is breaking not aero? The CF flange in all probably aid airflow. Is airflow not aero? Sure i doubt its downforce but its still aero....

Yeah I think he was talking about it producing downforce, instead of cleaning up the airflow around the wheel, which it surely must be doing.

[DaveKillens]

The inner carbon fiber ring is tapered, smaller near the center of the wheel, and wider at the rim. Although the surface appears smooth and free of any vanes or fins, it would still have an effect on the air, the boundary layer would want to move the air in the direction of wheel rotation. It would tend to force the air outwards away from center of the axis of wheel rotation, centrifugal action. And since it is at an angle, the air would want to flow from inside to outside of the wheel. Pumping air, or at least assisting it.

[manchild]

The inner carbon fiber ring is tapered, smaller near the center of the wheel, and wider at the rim...

umm... Dave, which pic are you refeering to? There is only one crown shaped ring that is not wider than the rim and whose outer diameter fits the rim. Filisetti's drawing has nothing to do with reality. Just compare his drawing and my edited version with real photos of carbon ring.

Also, since ring is shaped as crown it isn't smooth all the way and threfore it has some sort of fan effect.

Paolo Filisetti


manchild

[Mikey_s]

MC,

ref your excerpt from the regulations - which year are you quoting them from? - I have the 2006 regs from the FIA site and article 15.1.1 does not exist - it just refers to an appendix for the list of permitted materials. Furthermore, I guess that another way of interpreting the english language would be that a cast structure would not constitute a magnesium sheet...

On closer inspection of the photo I had thought the dark area on the wheel rim was a slot to permit increased air flow through the disc, i now realise that it is a flange with which they are glueing the rim to the wheel.

I can understand that closing the open section of the wheel would reduce the open void and thus smooth the airflow past the wheel, but then presumably this would be at least as effective, if not more so, on the front wheel - by the time the air reaches the back wheel its journey past the car is more less over (just the rear wing endplates to go and then bye-bye), so this is another reason to suspect that it really is more to do with braking than aero... but I still struggle with the concept of what it actually does for the braking efficiency. I can imagine that at high speed there is a substantial amount of air being pushed out through the 'spokes' of the wheel, which will be extremely turbulent as it has been rammed in through a brake duct, squeezed through a disc and then forced through a series of spokes which are continually chopping it about - so what a little bit of CF is doing I have no clue... (and for an F1 gadget it really looks rather amateur the way it has been glued on!)

Come on you aero experts, get thinking!!

[joseff]

I'm picking nits here but that Filisetti pic is a front wheel, while the CF rim in question is on the rear.

[manchild]

MC,
ref your excerpt from the regulations - which year are you quoting them from? - I have the 2006 regs from the FIA site and article 15.1.1 does not exist - it just refers to an appendix for the list of permitted materials. Furthermore, I guess that another way of interpreting the english language would be that a cast structure would not constitute a magnesium sheet...

You can find article 15.1.1 under article 15 "Car construction" on official FIA website http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/ ... ATIONS.pdf

Once it opens, click Edit than Find and type "magnesium" and its second result you'll get - page 38 of 59.
You can find same thing on official formula1.com site http://www.formula1.com/insight/rulesan ... 4/483.html
(click FIA regulations in detail)

Casting is only one of the ways to produce a metal part and magnesium sheet burns the same regardless if it was made by casting, stretching, shaped by CNC or pressed.

Carbon ring can't increase air flow and I repeat that I think it has nothing to do with functioning of brakes. It is only there because since wide ducts were introduced flow of hot air trough the wheel is more efficient and Ferrari concluded that they don't need wheel that is opened as much as it was so they partly closed it and improved aerodynamics of the car. Maximal hot air flow is defined by inlet of ducts and space between wheel’s spokes so nothing added beyond wheel spokes can't improve flow unless it is fan shaped.

They'd do the same with front wheel if they weren't turning which would cause understeering and increase drag since ring on front wheels would catch the air in turns and also worsen flow of hot air outside.

Try analyzing it as you see it and compare what you see with FIA regulations rather than basing your analysis by taking for granted Ferrari’s public statement that ring is part of the braking system. They used that only as an excuse in attempt to justify it.