2017 Mexico Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, 27-29 October

[ringo]

You would damage your oponents car if you want to win a championship you have an outside chance to.
And im sorry 1 second is more than enough tim to react in formula1.
We see drivers talk about losing 1 tenth by make in errors. They know how much they can do and react to in one second.
I dont buy your opinion that he did not have enough time to understand what his car was doing. 1 second is a lot of time for these kinds of sports, even for sprinting ( we had usain bolt at the races last week, they should have asked him the similaries between the sports) and you would be suprised how much the human brain can process and react to in half a second muchless 1.
Vettel is a 4 time chapion who pull of much faster and clinical overtakes in this very same race demanding more precision and control than what you think he isnt capable of. This incidents just screams the only thing he lost control of is his temper. Again i've got nothing against him. He is a great driver but as predicted at the start of the season his anger problems and rantings were his and ferarri's demise this year.

[TAG]

You also ignore the best point of all: why in earth would use your front wing to try to do damage?

You know why you're just as wrong arguing this as someone arguing the intentional side? Because to answer your own question, why would someone drive up next to another competitor and ram their car into them? Vettel is not okay when it comes to things not going his way. You simply cannot with full confidence say that he didn't do it on purpose. You simply can't.

The only thing we agree with is Hamilton not being a victim, he's a four time WDC, the most accomplished four time WDC in the sport.



Here is Vettel describing his fist lap incident on British TV.

[komninosm]

And what is the situation with Max and Lewis crash? Who's the villain there?

If Max had a flat tire then Lewis would be at fault. I'm assuming Vettel hit Max's right rear and Lewis his left.
But he wouldn't be a villain because he had nothing to gain, nor did it look even slightly on purpose.
He would just be slightly more at fault (since Max did squeeze him out when Lewis was ahead temporarily the blame is shared). Racing incident or at best the smallest penalty possible.

But Vettel, whether on purpose or not, DID hit two cars, 100% his fault both times, the second time he had something to gain (and his wing was already damaged so nothing to lose and he was desperate and angry) and it looked suspiciously on purpose (even if it wasn't and it was probably just a miscalculation of distance). And it actually DID cause his major opponent Hamilton to have a flat tire and drive the WHOLE lap around slowly and pit AND have a damaged diffuser for the whole race.
This MUST have been a penalty. A severe one.

And talk of FIARRARI aside, I honestly think that if Vettel was ahead a bit in champ points and Lewis behind they would have penalized Vettel to give us a better championship battle. The Liberty Media who owns the races has influence over FIA too. They could push for punishment or leniency too in several occasions with several ways.

EDIT: We'll never be sure, unless Vettel mans up later in his life and apologizes, and even then there will be doubters. But Ferrari/Vettel are ruining F1 with their actions, bringing disrepute to the sport and not apologizing. They really aren't worth all the extra money they're being given and their fans are just the worse too. They need to be more humble and respectful. The situation is out of control if you just see the regression of many ferrari fans in various places on the web and real life.

[turbof1]

You would damage your oponents car if you want to win a championship you have an outside chance to.

With 100% chance of damaging your own chances in the process. As I mentioned, if it was a conscious decision he'd aim for the bargeboard/sidepod area. Maximum damage for minimal risk.

And im sorry 1 second is more than enough tim to react in formula1

To react on reflex yes, to react on a conscious decision no. Btw, that 1 second included the first steering input to the left. How are going to argue then that in that second he had to correct the car, which you yourself agreed that was that first input, and after that immediately made the conscious decision to hit the wheel? All in one second? F1 drivers have fantastic reflexes, but that's an entire different thing than in full knowledge slicing a tyre.

We see drivers talk about losing 1 tenth by make in errors. They know how much they can do and react to in one second

You are confusing conscious decisions for reflexes.

I dont buy your opinion that he did not have enough time to understand what his car was doing. 1 second is a lot of time for these kinds of sports, even for sprinting ( we had usain bolt at the races last week, they should have asked him the similaries between the sports) and you would be suprised how much the human brain can process and react to in half a second muchless 1.

You are confusing conscious decisions for reflexes.

Vettel is a 4 time chapion who pull of much faster and clinical overtakes in this very same race demanding more precision and control than what you think he isnt capable of. This incidents just screams the only thing he lost control of is his temper. Again i've got nothing against him. He is a great driver but as predicted at the start of the season his anger problems and rantings were his and ferarri's demise this year.

You are confusing conscious decisions for reflexes.

For the record, Vettel did stupid things this season including this incident. And yes he has trouble staying focussed under emotional duress. When you loose focus you are not aware of what is happening around you and you will not have the reflex to act. That's what ultimately happened with Vettel, in most of the incidents he had this season: being unaware of his surroundings.

why would someone drive up next to another competitor and ram their car into them?

Atleast he handled that better, using his tyre sidewall .

[komninosm]

why would someone drive up next to another competitor and ram their car into them?

Atleast he handled that better, using his tyre sidewall .

It's not really that funny though. This has brought disrepute to F1 and altered the minds of many fans who make stupidly macho and dangerous comments. They should have really apologized for that and not just play it off like that. And properly punished of course.

[turbof1]

why would someone drive up next to another competitor and ram their car into them?

Atleast he handled that better, using his tyre sidewall .

It's not really that funny though. This has brought disrepute to F1 and altered the minds of many fans who make stupidly macho and dangerous comments. They should have really apologized for that and not just play it off like that. And properly punished of course.

You have to relativate at some point. At the time it was shock for me too. And yes it brought disrepute, but it's not the first time and it will not be the last. I agree it should have been punished harsher, but they did not. It's time to move on from it. You can't stay stuck at it. The same will happen with this accident in a few months time: people will laugh about it. And why wouldn't they?

All taken, I feel Vettel is only bringing himself in disrepute. The sport's integrity does not go down with one driver. In such cases atleast.

[marvin78]

All taken, I feel Vettel is only bringing himself in disrepute.

I could imagine that even that is a two-sided sword. I think that more people in the world know him now than after his 4th title. The question is, wether that's what Vettel wants.

[turbof1]

All taken, I feel Vettel is only bringing himself in disrepute.

I could imagine that even that is a two-sided sword. I think that more people in the world know him now than after his 4th title. The question is, wether that's what Vettel wants.

People's memory are relatively short. For instance, Hamilton had a somewhat similar messy season in 2011. Nobody talks anymore about that. Vettel will be remembered for his championships, not for one messy year. I don't even think he'll be remembered for the championship fight with Hamilton. For that you'd need a rivalry like Senna-Prost or indeed Hamilton-Rosberg.

Hell, I'll most likely remember him more for the great fight he put up at Spa!

[Jolle]

All taken, I feel Vettel is only bringing himself in disrepute.

I could imagine that even that is a two-sided sword. I think that more people in the world know him now than after his 4th title. The question is, wether that's what Vettel wants.

People's memory are relatively short. For instance, Hamilton had a somewhat similar messy season in 2011. Nobody talks anymore about that. Vettel will be remembered for his championships, not for one messy year. I don't even think he'll be remembered for the championship fight with Hamilton. For that you'd need a rivalry like Senna-Prost or indeed Hamilton-Rosberg.

Hell, I'll most likely remember him more for the great fight he put up at Spa!

There are plenty of people here to remind us all of his ‘11 year when it comes to the greatness of Ham

A messy year is something else then playing bumper cars to gain an advantage or out of frustration. Look at Schumacher. His reputation is slightly tainted because of some controversial decisions he made on track (and strangely, Senna is almost applauded for them).

[Wynters]

It's not really that funny though. This has brought disrepute to F1...

Did it though? Look at the great drivers of recent times. Senna? Deliberately rammed someone to guarantee he won the title. Prost? Deliberately rammed someone to guarantee he won the title. Schumacher? Deliberately rammed someone (and tried to ram another) to guarantee he won the title. Even if Vettel did do it deliberately (and I don't think he did) then all he is doing is following in the footsteps of his highly respected and lauded predecessors.

'WDC competitor rams rival' is not disreputable, it's business as usual.

[CLKGTR]

Top speed analysis - Vettel hits record speed in Mexico

Interestingly, F1 2017 cars were just 10 km/h slower than 2016 cars in Mexico despite much more drag...

[TAG]

It's not really that funny though. This has brought disrepute to F1...

Did it though? Look at the great drivers of recent times. Senna? Deliberately rammed someone to guarantee he won the title. Prost? Deliberately rammed someone to guarantee he won the title. Schumacher? Deliberately rammed someone (and tried to ram another) to guarantee he won the title. Even if Vettel did do it deliberately (and I don't think he did) then all he is doing is following in the footsteps of his highly respected and lauded predecessors.

'WDC competitor rams rival' is not disreputable, it's business as usual.

Um, in Baku Vettel deliberately rammed someone because he was angry, not to win a title he then didn't even have the balls to own up to it, denying what he did. If he did ram into Hamilton here it was out of desperation, the title was already lost, so it would have been spite. Schumacher lost a title because he deliberately rammed someone, he was penalized for it. Senna rammed someone because the FiA was not listening to the issue and clearly he'd already lost a title because of it. It's laughable to paint those events with the same lauded predecessor brush.

[Restomaniac]

I'm not saying it was deliberate but there WOULD be a very reasoned excuse for it.
Hamilton on the outside going into second past Vettel would be highly likely to be the death knell of Vettel's title chances.

So what could you do if you are him. You could throw the dice.
A Hamilton retirement makes your chances are better than watching Hamilton take second when he only needs 5th. The smart dice roll is on trying something instead of trying nothing and at least it being in your hands. Remember that Vettel at that point has no idea how quick that RedBull is .

For clarification I'm not of that persuasion but there is a clear logic to it.

[GrandAxe]

... Some diversion for the really devious.

No one is considering that Vettel might not have been after the tyre, but the diffuser - a killer blow considering the high downforce nature of the track - or even Lewis' gearbox.

Diffuser? Gearbox? I would go for those, a tyre would just be useful collateral.

In both these cases loss of front wing wouldn't be too high a price to pay. That viewpoint completely bins turbo1's carefully researched and nuanced responses. But hey! But this is for the really twisted mind.

Now to the FIA's handling of this (and similar issues) - handing out weak penalties or doing nothing for reasons such as "because it might affect the championship" only creates room for the devil to play; minds begin to conjure all sorts of scenario's from clueless to outright corrupt, none of which are in the interest of the sport.

[turbof1]

... Some diversion for the really devious.

Ohh, I'll play along!

In both these cases loss of front wing wouldn't be too high a price to pay.

Except Vettel did not got back onto at least 2d place after having to limp around the track with that broken front wing. So ultimately him using his front wing to any degree of damage, even completely taking out Hamilton would actually have been too high a price to pay .

I can't remember actually a gearbox being destroyed by a front wing contact. Thinking about it, the gearbox is protected from all sides. Ironically, Vettel showed in Malaysia the best way how to potentially break a gearbox: by laterally shoving a front tyre to the rear tyre. That'll push the driveshaft into the gears and destroy it. Potentially, as Vettel himself got away. But you know, practice makes perfect.

Also, Vettel actually damaged the diffuser. When the tyre got destroyed, the diffuser hit the ground and large chunks of the outer edges got ripped off. So you can actually say Vettel did the smartest thing all along Except again destroying his own front wing and finishing on a position where he lost the title in any case .

I'm outsmarting you at outsmarting me .