2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[Professor]

Sorry to interrupt this fascinating tech discussion with an operations question, but: If I choose to use no stored power during a lap, and the track configuration and charging rate affords say 1mJ per lap of input, can I then continue to load my storage system and save that power up to the regulated storage limit, say 4mJ, for use during an opportune moment later in the race?

Are there any suggestions that I must use what power is gathered in one lap during that lap? If the total power gathered during one lap is less than the stored power allowed, I should be able to bank it for strategic reasons. Maybe this has been discussed, and if so, please forgive my ignorance.

I'm not too in tune with the engineering possibilities, I am just listening to this discussion, but I do have an interest in the strategic value.

Please don't tell me the regs won't allow what I have suggested, because at this point there are no regs.

Thanks

Or, have I totally misunderstood the subject?

[gridwalker]

I see no reason (in my limited understanding of the regulations) why storing energy from one lap to the next would be prohibited : the only time constraint is the amount of time that you can utilise the KERS power output on a single lap.

If you couldn't store energy from one lap to the next, it would be hard to deploy KERS down the start/finish straight, therefore the energy recovered from the final corner could be wasted. Although there are many things that don't appear to make sense in F1, this is not one of them

[autogyro]

Is it allowed to store extra boost from a turbo generator into the same electrical storage as KERS energy?

What are the trade off figures using a smaller battery pack and an electrical storage flywheel coupled to the engine compressor?

Would full recovery of braking energy allow the removal of all the conventional braking system?

[WhiteBlue]

this is maybe your assumption WB (possible charging rate of 30C), please show me some evidence of that.

From the A123 data for fast charging (5 min for 90% capacity) we see that 12C is as good as it get´s for now, and this is allready quite impressive for an accu/battery.

Here is the source you are looking for The document on page 3 mentions:

A123 cells can withstand short bursts at discharge rates up to 33C (33 times capacity).

Nevertheless 4MJ in 12s is 333kW/s, that is allready the average charging rate you would need. You don´t have 40 sec under braking WB. And how does this fit in with a max. 120kW KERS power limit? If this is still, the same as it is now (with 60kW), than this is the max power you can use at any given time. This applies for charging and for discharging. Or not?

In reality we do not have 12 s of breaking. We have a lap of 80 s in which all the 4 MJ of breaking and the 4 MJ of accelerating occurs in a mix. In this model we assume that all collected energy gets used for breaking in the same lap. So in reality we have to treat it as a 80 s period that sees an average of 100 kW charge/discharge with a peak rate of 333 kM in burst mode. That is exactly what I have done.

[WhiteBlue]

Sorry to interrupt this fascinating tech discussion with an operations question, but: If I choose to use no stored power during a lap, and the track configuration and charging rate affords say 1mJ per lap of input, can I then continue to load my storage system and save that power up to the regulated storage limit, say 4mJ, for use during an opportune moment later in the race?

Historically the KERS regulations have two limits: The maximum storable energy and the maximum release rate or power. Both are relevant for the engineer. You have to be able to store the nominal energy in your system which isn't really the problem. It gets more difficult when you look at the power the energy has to be released and stored. Obviously both can be a problem because power release is allowed to happen in a continuous period which drains the battery of the full charge. In the case of the 2013 regulation with assumed 4MJ energy it is 33 s of 120 kW. That is a 20% overload but there is enough time in the cycle for the batteries to cool down again. The 2s bursts of 333 kW are also tolerable because they happen in much shorter periods. If there were 10s periods of 333 kW breaking I would say you have to be concerned.

[747heavy]

this is maybe your assumption WB (possible charging rate of 30C), please show me some evidence of that.

From the A123 data for fast charging (5 min for 90% capacity) we see that 12C is as good as it get´s for now, and this is allready quite impressive for an accu/battery.

Here is the source you are looking for The document on page 3 mentions:

A123 cells can withstand short bursts at discharge rates up to 33C (33 times capacity).

I ask for charging rates, I´m well aware of the quoted discharge rates.
But while we are on it, and let´s assume it would be possible, to do what you try to do, you may want to read the article again and use the correct voltage for a 30C discharge, because it is not the 2.75V you use.

Nevertheless 4MJ in 12s is 333kW/s, that is allready the average charging rate you would need. You don´t have 40 sec under braking WB. And how does this fit in with a max. 120kW KERS power limit? If this is still, the same as it is now (with 60kW), than this is the max power you can use at any given time. This applies for charging and for discharging. Or not?

In reality we do not have 12 s of breaking. We have a lap of 80 s in which all the 4 MJ of breaking and the 4 MJ of accelerating occurs in a mix. In this model we assume that all collected energy gets used for breaking in the same lap. So in reality we have to treat it as a 80 s period that sees an average of 100 kW charge/discharge with a peak rate of 333 kM in burst mode. That is exactly what I have done.

How much time do we spend in "reality" under braking WB?
I understand what you try to do with your calculation, but we have only 12 sec to collect/harvest the 4MJ you would like to harvest.

Can we agree on this or not?
There is not more then 12s braking per lap.

Is 12s the value we want to use yes or no?
Is 4MJ the amount of energy you want to harvest per lap? yes or no?

If both yes, what is the necessary average transfer rate?
333kW/s or 333KJ Yes or no ?

Let´s see if we can find some common ground here, before we continue.

[WhiteBlue]

How much time do we spend in "reality" under braking WB?
I understand what you try to do with your calculation, but we have only 12 sec to collect/harvest the 4MJ you would like to harvest.

Can we agree on this or not?
There is not more then 12s braking per lap.

Is 12s the value we want to use yes or no?
Is 4MJ the amount of energy you want to harvest per lap? yes or no?

If both yes, what is the necessary average transfer rate?
333kW/s or 333KJ Yes or no ?

Let´s see if we can find some common ground here, before we continue.

xpensive and I agreed that 12s out of an 80s lap would be spend in breaking. We also developed the 333 kW peak electric breaking rate figure. If we do a worst case assumption that all electric breaking is done at peak rate we come to a total breaking time of 4s. We typically have 12 to 20 corners in a circuit. It shows that in reality the peaks are very short, more like 1-2 s and the rest is spend in not so heavy braking. If you consider breaking time interval impact on the thermal stress of the batteries it is not the 12 s total breaking time that is relevant but the 80 s of the lap in which the breaking events are distributed.

[747heavy]

I see where you coming from WB, and yes you have a point in terms of termal load/stress.
It is not 12s 333kW/s it is as an example 6 times 2 sec.
But 333kW/s is not peak it is the average needed to store 4MJ in 12s.

I will come back later and use some real wold example, but yes you have a point in terms of termal load.
But I still don´t think you can charge with 30C, and please look up the correct voltage for a 30C load.

[Shaddock]

Is it allowed to store extra boost from a turbo generator into the same electrical storage as KERS energy?

What are the trade off figures using a smaller battery pack and an electrical storage flywheel coupled to the engine compressor?

Would full recovery of braking energy allow the removal of all the conventional braking system?

I don't think this would work, and here's why:

What you are proposing isn't KERS, you aren't recovering energy from the 'moving car' (KE = (½)mv2) but converting energy directly from the engine.

You are using the turbine as an 'alternator' (only under braking) to charge the KERS device.

The KERS/Flywheel is then connected in some manner via a gearbox and clutch assembly to the compressor to spin that to 100k rpm (these are called Superchargers - not sure these are allowed) to compress the charge to the engine.

I think this idea would brake several rules regarding KERS and FI and sounds very inefficent.

NB: The DV in a turbo setup doesn't prevent turbo overspeed, the wastegate does that.

[xpensive]

xpensive and I agreed that 12s out of an 80s lap would be spend in breaking.
...

I'm not sure if I wanna be an alibi here, I can recall 12 s, but not much else however. If you wanna pack 4 MJ over 12 seconds, the maths are pretty simple, you better have a net charge to the batteries of 333 kW on average.

With reasonable effiiency numbers, guess that you need to begin with 400 kW of mechanical power into the MGU and 350 going out, but I'm afraid connecting 350 kW to the batteries for 12 s is gonna fry them pretty good anyway?

Perhaps going back to steel-brakes and skinny tyres would help?

[autogyro]

You still have not got it.
I am recovering energy from braking and feeding it to a flywheel storage device and batteries.
The turbine and compressor are seperate and the turbine drives a generator that feeds the same flywheel storage device.
The flywheel storage device electricaly drives the compressor and also feeds current to the batteries.
It is also possible to connect the turbine back up to the compressor and balance the drive torque electricaly and mechanicaly, if required for the regulations.

Yes the compressor would be a supercharger but driven by stored energy and not by the engine. The turbine/generator would only be driven by exhaust gas when more electrical storage was required, for example to keep energy harvesting at the highest level. When full power is needed for overtaking etc, the exhaust gas would not be restricted by the turbine and full dual power sources would be applied through the wheel MGUs.

[autogyro]

xpensive and I agreed that 12s out of an 80s lap would be spend in breaking.
...

I'm not sure if I wanna be an alibi here, I can recall 12 s, but not much else however. If you wanna pack 4 MJ over 12 seconds, the maths are pretty simple, you better have a net charge to the batteries of 333 kW on average.

With reasonable effiiency numbers, guess that you need to begin with 400 kW of mechanical power into the MGU and 350 going out, but I'm afraid connecting 350 kW to the batteries for 12 s is gonna fry them pretty good anyway?

Perhaps going back to steel-brakes and skinny tyres would help?

So why rely solely on batteries?

[WhiteBlue]

I have already admitted that the the 2007 figures do not make a lot of sense for a 2013 KERS with 333 prismatic cells. You install ten times the weight that you ideally need for the capacity and carry all that excess mass around to barely charge the harvested energy back in one lap. The conclusion is that they will have better and custom made batteries and probably lower energy like the 2.3 MJ figure previously discussed. Remember in 2013 there will be no fancy turbo design. That will all come in 2014.

[ringo]

We don't even have to look on the braking time. That can be misleading.
The braking deceleration is fairly constant and is more flexible to use than estimating a time. The braking speeds are more accurate for each corner as well.
from a little quick calc.
1.04MJ in canada, one of the hardest tracks on brakes, but not many turns.
1.17MJ in singapore
1.46MJ in Hungary
1.27MJ in spain

edit: the calcs are wrong , sorry for the mix up.

I don't think 4MJ is possible per lap; with braking that is. Maybe in 4 or 3 laps.

If i understand the C rating, 33C means the battery can discharge in 109s, or 1.8minutes.

The A123 has a constant C rating of 30, but i've browsed online and seen 70C ratings though 30C is still the safe side, not sure if it's burst or constant. I am not fond of battery tech so bear with me.

White Blue, what are the voltages and Ah of the 2009 KERS batteries?

One other thing that i was puzzling. The batteries should work better at hotter temperatures. Cooling them is counter intuitive, could cooling be an indication that the C rating is pushed beyond normal limits?

[Shaddock]

You still have not got it. I don't undertsand the benefits of the system you are talking about? The idea of turbocharging is that it's very efficient compared to supercharging, so why you'd want to explore that root baffles me. An electric supercharger is only going to make 5psi, when 30psi is going to be needed.
I am recovering energy from braking and feeding it to a flywheel storage device and batteries.
The turbine and compressor are seperate and the turbine drives a generator that feeds the same flywheel storage device. Is this legal?
The flywheel storage device electricaly drives the compressor and also feeds current to the batteries. Is this legal?
It is also possible to connect the turbine back up to the compressor (This is now a supercharged & turbo charged engine) and balance the drive torque electricaly and mechanicaly, if required for the regulations. Is this via a clutch?

Yes the compressor would be a supercharger (Again, is this legal) but driven by stored energy and not by the engine (Using electrical energy to drive a supercharger rather than motors connected to the wheels?. The turbine/generator would only be driven by exhaust gas when more electrical storage was required, for example to keep energy harvesting at the highest level. When full power is needed for overtaking etc, the exhaust gas would not be restricted by the turbine and full dual power sources would be applied through the wheel MGUs.