Red Bull exceed fuel flow limit, Ricciardo DSQ at Australian GP

[dans79]

it is not so easy to adjust that max fuel flow and maintain some sort of performance from the car, surely they gained some advantage over the competition by doing so, but calling them cheats - never, its just dumb, the base rule still is - 100kg/h, which they claim not to have exceeded and FIA, the POLICE, say they did, based on a wacky flow meter

Well it can't be that hard, considering every other team on the grid did it.

they did cheat considering it's come to light that they received a technical directive march 1st that told them the sensor readings are the only thing that mattered.

[e30ernest]

It's thought-out and reasonably argued, but forgets a very critical part: you only have 100kg. You can't run 100kg/h or higher the whole race, so ricciardo eventually had to lower the fuel flow. The fact, yes that is a fact, that he did and didn't result in a DNF means it defeats the argument.

I would think that the only time he would exceed the 100kg/h flow limit would be when he is on WOT. Because the amount of fuel required by an engine is affected by the amount of air introduced into it, he should be below 100kg/h at below WOT. That's why simply lifting-off throttle earlier before braking points saves quite a bit of fuel. Given that, I do think it's possible to exceed the imposed limits at WOT for the entirety of the race.

I'm not so sure if they did it for reliability though. While running a little richer can be easier on the engine, we really don't know how much they've exceeded the FIA limits. For all we know, it could have been just over the imposed limit and gave negligible gains on both performance and reliability.

[jz11]

it is not so easy to adjust that max fuel flow and maintain some sort of performance from the car, surely they gained some advantage over the competition by doing so, but calling them cheats - never, its just dumb, the base rule still is - 100kg/h, which they claim not to have exceeded and FIA, the POLICE, say they did, based on a wacky flow meter

Well it can't be that hard, considering every other team on the grid did it.

they did cheat considering it's come to light that they received a technical directive march 1st that told them the sensor readings are the only thing that mattered.

calling that cheating would be like calling someone dumb just because someone, who you KNOW has lied before, said so, these things are relative, and should have (and in this case - could have) been avoided at all cost

and remember that pretty much every other team had quite a bit more time testing their cars, didn't they? so maybe they just didn't have enough time to investigate this and develop a solution

IMHO they, RB, did what they had to do to try and get the best result out of this particular GP, I don't believe they would have cheated so bluntly

I'm more puzzled about why FIA didn't homologate engines (or rather whole PU) with certain engine maps (dry/wet/w-wet for instance) that they know cannot exceed the 100kg/h limit, similar to the old V8s, that were tied to certain power output characteristics, and then use that not-too-accurate flow meter just to eavesdrop on the situation, or to measure the 100kg limit for the race, and if someone is suspected of cheating - investigate that

[Pup]

The appeal date has been set for April 14.

[turbof1]

it is not so easy to adjust that max fuel flow and maintain some sort of performance from the car, surely they gained some advantage over the competition by doing so, but calling them cheats - never, its just dumb, the base rule still is - 100kg/h, which they claim not to have exceeded and FIA, the POLICE, say they did, based on a wacky flow meter

Well it can't be that hard, considering every other team on the grid did it.

they did cheat considering it's come to light that they received a technical directive march 1st that told them the sensor readings are the only thing that mattered.

calling that cheating would be like calling someone dumb just because someone, who you KNOW has lied before, said so, these things are relative, and should have (and in this case - could have) been avoided at all cost

and remember that pretty much every other team had quite a bit more time testing their cars, didn't they? so maybe they just didn't have enough time to investigate this and develop a solution

IMHO they, RB, did what they had to do to try and get the best result out of this particular GP, I don't believe they would have cheated so bluntly

I'm more puzzled about why FIA didn't homologate engines (or rather whole PU) with certain engine maps (dry/wet/w-wet for instance) that they know cannot exceed the 100kg/h limit, similar to the old V8s, that were tied to certain power output characteristics, and then use that not-too-accurate flow meter just to eavesdrop on the situation, or to measure the 100kg limit for the race, and if someone is suspected of cheating - investigate that

I also wouldn't call this cheating. Cheating is when you intentionally defy the rules as written down (the spirit of the rules don't apply in f1). Red Bull tried to get an advantage through interpretation. Unfortunaly they took that one step too far. I honestly don't have a clue how they reasoned that the technical directive, stating that only the fia can determine alternative methods, wasn't valid in this case. Perhaps they deemed an incorrectly sensor to be an overruling factor, but again no idea how they reasoned it.

We'll see how it pans out April the 14th. If by some miracle red bull wins it, the consequences will be disastrous: not only will that allow teams to run he fuel flow of 100kg/h on their own terms, which will create an arms race of ever more sophisticated systems trying to look accurate while being as much as possibly being off, but will also undermine the legality and credibility of technical directives.

[Pup]

Red Bull tried to get an advantage through interpretation.

They're trying to get an advantage through defiance.

[djos]

Red Bull tried to get an advantage through interpretation.

They're trying to get an advantage through defiance.

Oh rubbish, the MacLaren ECU is clearly showing they are using lower flow rates than the POS ultrasonic FFM and with the issues they've had with it I'm not surprised they have rejected the FFM as untrustworthy!

[Pup]

Clearly.

[turbof1]

Red Bull tried to get an advantage through interpretation.

They're trying to get an advantage through defiance.

A race team were so many bright people work, that would simply defy rules? Nobody at Red Bull is that stupid. They must have had an interpretation that allowed them, in their own logic, to act they way they did.

Or... Horner, one person, defied it in the heat of the moment . It can hold some truth if you try to put yourself in the shoes of the persons in charge. I mean it sounds very strange; I can't imagine any possible interpretation that allowed to put aside that the fia has to be the one to make the call. Did Horner even knew about that?

IMO the appeal smells and looks like a joke. A waste of everybodies time and fresh business suits, really. Unless red bull has something.

[beelsebob]

Red Bull tried to get an advantage through interpretation.

They're trying to get an advantage through defiance.

Oh rubbish, the MacLaren ECU is clearly showing they are using lower flow rates than the POS ultrasonic FFM and with the issues they've had with it I'm not surprised they have rejected the FFM as untrustworthy!

You still haven't explained why you think RedBull's sensors are more accurate than the FIA's.

[ChrisM40]

We have to remember that as far as the FIA are concerned the sensors are at worst 0.25% out. In theory you can run to 99.75kg/h and guarantee to be legal.

Im not an expert, but are injector based calculations accurate? Really..? Is there not variance? Can you guarantee that the injector opening duration is an accurate measure every time? On my BMW engined car (which uses that measure) it sure as hell isnt a very accurate measure of economy.

[gray41]

So will RedBull run the same way in both Malaysia and Bahrain?

[ChrisM40]

I guess it depends on 2 things. How they read the wind (whether they think they are on to a loser or not), and whether there are any more 'directives' between now and then. I want the FIA to black flag cars after 1 warning. Doing that makes it no longer worth the risk.

[Skippon]

That would be supremely arrogant. Brixworth and Maranello would ask for the black flag!!

[djos]

They're trying to get
You still haven't explained why you think RedBull's sensors are more accurate than the FIA's.

Not redbull's sensors, the FIA's control ECU calculations are more accurate than the FFM.