Indian GP 2011 - Buddh

[beelsebob]

Massa was in the racing line do you not agree beelsebob?

Yes I do.

Ok.

So if massa is ahead, and on the racing line why should he not turn in? Surely the car behind would know it's a shrinking gap, and the car in front would know that going off line he may as well yield.
A rock and a hard place!

To avoid incident, massa should have given room and Hamilton should have know it was a closing gap, and not been there.
But this being racing and all, with guys who are paid to race.... They did what we all would. IMO

Because as I said above, I do not agree with your view that being on the racing line and ahead gives you the right to drive into the side of another driver. Instead, if you can see them, you have a duty to give them enough space.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Richard what would happen to massa if he went at full racing speed through that particular corner?

Have a close look at the dust offline. Apologies I can link the video I'm on my iPad ...

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Fair enough beelsebob. I see where you are coming from, but my opinion still remains. Racing incident

[beelsebob]

Richard what would happen to massa if he went at full racing speed through that particular corner?

Have a close look at the dust offline. Apologies I can link the video I'm on my iPad ...

He would have run wide, this is part of racing – making people have to slow down helps overtaking. Massa absolutely had a choice to avoid the accident – it involved running round the outside and slowing down a bit.

The implication of your "rock and a hard place" analogy is that it's okay to run into someone if your only other choice is to let them through. That doesn't sound at all right to me – it would simply result in the defending car ramming the attacking car any time that he thought they were going to get through.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

My overriding impression is perhaps that could also be levelled at Hamilton.

He too could have avoided the collision.

[beelsebob]

My overriding impression is perhaps that could also be levelled at Hamilton.

He too could have avoided the collision.

IIRC the view that the stewards took was that Hamilton did nothing that actively caused the collision – just being beside a car does not cause a collision. More so, when he realised that Massa was doing something that would actively cause a collision, he took avoiding action (hence why he breaked significantly earlier than Massa). So Hamilton fulfilled his duty to try and leave room for the car he could see, Massa did the reverse.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Well If that's the precedent set, then anyone can stick there nose into a shrinking gap and hope for the best.

Because that's what will happen and more collisions will take place.

[Richard]

ignore this post....

[Traction]

http://youtu.be/AuNyQNe5Zbs

[beelsebob]

Well If that's the precedent set, then anyone can stick there nose into a shrinking gap and hope for the best.

Because that's what will happen and more collisions will take place.

I disagree. It means that anyone can stick their nose into a shrinking gap – as long as they get sufficiently along side that the other driver can see them without using their mirrors before the breaking zone. This won't cause collisions as long as people drive sanely and don't go "I can see them but I'm still going to turn in on them".

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Well it sets a precedent for people to jump out the way and for the overtaker to not make a responsible pass. All you have to do is out break the guy irrelevant of making the corner or giving any respect whatsoever to the 600 kilo object in front.

Did anyone honestly expect massa to yield? Had he yielded I guarantee you his career I'm f1 would have shortened considerably.

[beelsebob]

Well it sets a precedent for people to jump out the way and for the overtaker to not make a responsible pass. All you have to do is out break the guy irrelevant of making the corner or giving any respect whatsoever to the 600 kilo object in front.

Well this is true isn't it? If you outbreak the guy irrelevant of whether you make the corner we don't expect the defender to simply drive into them, do we. Instead, we expect them to skillfully recognise that the other guy is going wide, wait for them to clear the apex, then take a tight line and get better traction out of the corner as the other guy disappears over the kerb.

I'm more than happy for people to dive in on the breaks, as long as their presence is known before the breaking point.

Did anyone honestly expect massa to yield? Had he yielded I guarantee you his career I'm f1 would have shortened considerably.

With all the discussion of who's going to be knocking on Ferrari's door now, I wouldn't be surprised if his career has been foreshortened by the action he did take

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

No doubt massa will be out sooner rather than later, but in this case i think we have to recognise that he didn't intentionally drive into Hamilton. He expected Hamilton to break earlier(which Hamilton did if you view the video) just not early enough for massa.

This will be endless. So it's probably best we IM each other and save the thread from being completely taken over.

[Dragonfly]

This distinction in b is why Massa was penalised. It's not about who's in front, it's about who can see where the other guy is. Massa could, and hence had no right to simply drive into the side of him.

You mean Hamilton didn't see Massa and the direction he was going?
Massa KNEW Hamilton is somewhere there, but no one can say whether he could see Hamilton in the mirrors the moments before they hit.
Hamilton on the other side had all the visual info and IMHO he was going to hit Massa even if the latter went wider, as LH entered in a straight line not able to brake enough on the dusty part. At best, he might just have used Massa's car as a moving barrier to make the turn, like he did in Monaco and Silverstone. But this time Massa was less than cooperative and shut the door abruptly.
Racing incident, no penalties needed.

[Richard]

There's a good analysis of Massa/Hamilton move on the BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula ... 524661.stm

It looks at the previous lap and explains how DRS and KERs led to the move taking place on that corner. I found that the most interesting part because it is technical just like this forum