Espionage at Ferrari and McLaren

[Crabbia]

Would it be me for going home and revising, knowing I had an advantage over my classmates and ruthlessly exploiting that, or would it be yours for showing me the paper in the first place, well aware that I'd go home and revise it?

If i wanted you to have it, definitly i am partly culpible although, and moving away from the analogy a bit, wouldnt you say its a fair comment to say that while Stepney wanted MC to have the documents for his own ends Ferrari by no means wanted that?
i agree with you that my analogy is a little bit of a platitude but i was just trying to get to the bare issue.

[Crabbia]

One more thing.

How, pray tell will the FIA decide that the new Mclaren is free from other F1 manufacturers IP?

Will the FIA need data from every team on the design of their car so they can compare to ensure legality?

Sounds like a big job with a whole case of canned worms attached to me.

I completely agree with you, thats just BS and is completely unneccassary. as with my view on how they used thi information there wont be a direct transfere of ferrari IP so its way over the top. It make the whole judgement seem like a witch hunt which makes me think that that last little 'full inspection' of the 2008 car might have beem max's two finger salute to Ron Dennis.

[Tom]

Perhaps your analogy is closer than you think.

[Crabbia]

Perhaps your analogy is closer than you think.

If your implying that ferrari wanted them to have that information then, i donno dude, you're in scotland, find nessy for me...

[dumrick]

It's already been discussed a million times or so, but Stepeny did not reveal any cheating. If they introduced stricter front wing tests I'm sure that at one point the new bridge wing would fail and so be deemed illegal.

I hate beating on a dead horse, but perhaps you really don't have the IQ to tell apart having an hidden device to allow controlled flexibility of an element that must be rigid (cheating and concealing the cheat) and the fact that no material has absolute rigidity and must have a certain amount of flexing. This flexing is required in the most "rigid" element to preventing it from breaking. Anyhow, Ferrari was the one nurturing the confusion in the weakest minds by taking advantage of the flexing properties of materials and using it for contravening regulations (see the old "flexing wings" affair).

Maybe it's my bad, assuming that in a technical forum everyone has a minimum technical knowledge...

[Rob W]

(I'll say it now that the hearing is over)... After last week's race the other teams supposedly were ecstatic that McLaren won at Ferrari's expense. Rumours around that Luca di Montezemolo had given FIA the ultimatum: either punish them or Ferrari will leave F1.

Also, regarding the fine handed down to McLaren. It was qualified with a "less the FOM income lost as a result of the points deduction" - I'm guessing that McLaren's fine will only be in the tens of millions because of this.

Regarding 2008. It looks more like McLaren will be under close scrutiny - not actually void from the constructors championship.

In the end.. the driver's title matters about ten times as much as the constructor's title with regards to sponsors, glory, PR (I've never seen anyone give an interview with Tiger Wood's gold clubs before ).

Now... on with the racing.

Rob W

[ginsu]

I just realized that the FIA passed a 100 million USD fine, and since McLaren's bank is probably in British pounds, the FIA just saved McLaren 50 million British pounds!

[Becker4]

regarding the impact of this scandal on the image of F1:

I live in America, and the major American publications (meaning newspapers and magazines) rarely comment on F1, except for a few pages deep in the sports section - to get my news, I frequent websites (especially this one!). However, in my reading of the websites of these publications today (such as Time magazine, the New York Times, LA Times, etc), EVERY ONE has had a front page article on it. I have never seen this before, not when Lewis won, or even in the USGP/Michelin fiasco a few years back. Make of that what you will, but the impression left by the articles is not a good one.

[checkered]

Rob W, the initial

estimates of the actual sum McLaren will have to find are $65 - 70M, but that of course doesn't change the total amount.

That the team shone a light on Renault in the past few days was perhaps part desperation, part tactics. The French team has shown overt interest in Alonso's services and while he spared himself of punishment by "volunteering" information (Lewis apparently didn't even have such information to volunteer) he put himself in a position to make a move. By associating Renault with the scandal, McLaren effectively made his only viable option too risky to contemplate. That's playing hardball.

The problem is how this was achieved ... if some reports are right, McLaren implicated their former engineer with taking three discs of Ferrari technical information with him to Renault. Subsequently Renault was alledged to have modified some of their cooling and electronics solutions. It only takes a second to put two and two together and see a potential domino effect here. Once the FIA investigates Renault, they could also face losing their constructor's points and a hefty fine. No wonder Flavio was seen at McLaren facilities during Monza. It's also problematic for McLaren to explain (if the reports about the Renault connection are verified) how they came to know this, but didn't know about Ferrari documentation's whereabouts or use in their own team ...

Also, with Hamilton apparently standing on much safer ground when it comes to this scandal, if Alonso decides to leave McLaren nonetheless it will be much easier for the team to take this WMSC decision to the International Court of Appeal. Such an action risks an even worse punishment, but importantly the ICA can also overturn the drivers' immunity, something that definitely is against Alonso's interest in the driver market.

Here's an interview with Dennis and Whitmarsh:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62320

Even they have to wait for the grounds of the decision to be released. David Coulthard, meanwhile keeps a level head in all this:

http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=David_Coulthard

[ginsu]

damn, i've been trying all day and have not been able to read the Autosport Q&A with Dennis and Whitmarsh because the server is too busy.

from what i've read, what really doesn't sit well is why coughlan would go far out of his way to make copies of documents he didn't feel comfortable possessing. also, coughlan's excuse, 'i made copies in case Stepney wanted them back,' just stinks of lies.

yeah, i can understand engineering curiousity could get you to look at the documents, but to take them and make copies, well that's a bit more than curious!

[checkered]

regarding the impact of this scandal on the image of F1: ... EVERY ONE has had a front page article on it. ... Make of that what you will, but the impression left by the articles is not a good one.

Perhaps NASCAR bosses have called a few reporters and suggested this needs a little extra coverage ...

[Rob W]

That the team shone a light on Renault in the past few days was perhaps part desperation, part tactics.

...The French team has shown overt interest in Alonso's services and while he spared himself of punishment by "volunteering" information..he put himself in a position to make a move.

I think you're reading far too much into theories made up by people who are most certainly not privvy to any real info and are perhaps conspiracy theorists. Renault have made nothing more than a passing comment about him in this entire saga. To extrapolate from this that McLaren are going after Renault to prevent Alonso leaving the team is just scientology-level logic - there is no evidence at all to support it (at least in the public domain).

Moreso, McLaren, with their car - I doubt they'd be too concerned with losing Alonso anyway - he's not even leading the driver's title as it is (for the record, I hope he wins the title). They were more worried about losing their entire business (and sponsors etc) for a year or two.

Alonso and De la Rosa's evidence probably added nothing to the case. As I said days before this the text messages prove nothing. Alonso's evidence therefore would have consisted of him saying "I promise I never had any information nor knowledge of any set-up data or otherwise..." It doesn't exactly take Sherlock Holmes to see that anyone could say this - it means nothing. FIA simply needed it to come out publicly from key persons within McLaren that they knew nothing and to help restore a bit of faith in the team and sport overall.

McLaren have essentially been given a clear bill with regards to the cheating claims - it was their lack of openness about it in the first hearing which got them punished.

Rob W

[Rob W]

damn, i've been trying all day and have not been able to read the Autosport Q&A with Dennis and Whitmarsh because the server is too busy.

They say (from questions asked in the press conference):

Q: How damaging financially is the punishment to McLaren?

Dennis: "Firstly, effectively, we will still have as an offset the revenue from the points earned to date. That will effectively half the size of the cheque we have to sign, if we ultimately accept this fine.

"But as you can see if you read our accounts, we turn over roughly $450-500 million USD a year, and we are debt-free, so obviously we are a very strong company with phenomenal growth.

"I jokingly asked [Mercedes motorsport director] Norbert [Haug] if he was going to chip in half, but we haven't really come to a conclusion on that negotiation."

Q: How is this going to affect the future of your drivers?

Dennis: "We have multi-year contracts with both of our drivers, and there has been no discussion about varying them.

"We have two of the best drivers in the world, and our commitment to winning races is undiminished. That's what we exist to do - to win races. And if there is any variation to those contracts, it will be by mutual agreements."

BMW boss Mario Theissen was also interviewed before the verdict:

he would "hate" it if his team moved into second place in the standings as a result of McLaren's points loss.

"We would hate to be that," he said on Thursday. "We would not enjoy it definitely because there have been two teams ahead of us all year, they are still stronger and we want to beat them fair and square next year, or at least get close to them, and not get ahead of one of them by disqualification.

"Even if we should finish second in the record books it would still be third place to me.

Rob W

[ginsu]

Thanks Rob, that's hilarious about asking Norbert Haug to help foot the bill!

[Rob W]

Here is the video of the conference with Ron Dennis.

Video link

Rob W