2014 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal

[PlatinumZealot]

I am so disappointed in Massa. I was rooting for him to overtake from like ten laps before so I don't even care about the crash.

[MuseF1]

What actually happend to both Lotus cars?
And what caused Raikkonen's spin? That one looked to have a mechanical reason.

I think I saw in one replay (Marussia incident perhaps) that one Lotus (supposedly Maldo) jumping over kerbs, and later had some sort of bodywork damage (the fin near the side pod entry was loose),

Maldonado had to retire with power unit problems. I think the damage to the C or D aero device (whatever they're called) on the left sidepod happened on lap 1 as it appeared he was hit with debris from Bianchi's car.

[autogyro]

Perez slight move off line could have been for many reasons.
He should have seen Massa and stayed on line but IMO a racing incident.

Massa was too close, he had plenty of track width to play with.
Perez moved over as Massa was right alongside so there was no time for Massa to react.

I like Massa he is a gentleman driver, however I have always felt that he has lacked overtaking ability under pressure ever since his accident with the flying spring.

[Godius]

Perez had no rear brakes left.

And why does that excuse him swerving off the racing line?

Why can't he swerve off the racing line? A driver doesn't need t stay on the racing line if he wants to defend, the only thing that is prohibited is to make an other move after the initial move. clearly this was Perez's initial move and he didn't even steer to the left, he just stopped steering that hard towards the righthand side of the track.

[Mandrake]

I'm still curious about how they got that merc to the finish line at similar pace to competitors without running out of fuel while having basically no kinetic energy recovery from braking, they might have still be able to harvest some out of the exhaust via turbocharger (which would imply even higher overall fuel consumption) generator to have at least some juice in the battery to run the internal combustion engine properly - mainly from driveability aspect - maintaining the speed of the turbo ALS wise (which supposedly is done via same electric motor-generator on the turbo) etc, but all in all - ROS should have had real fuel saving problems at the second part of the race

The electric energy is used to enhance the power of the ICE, not be exchange parts of it. The ICE always runs at full pelt while the electric motors kick in whenever charged and needed.

Or is that incorrect?

[spin1/2]

I'm still curious about how they got that merc to the finish line at similar pace to competitors without running out of fuel while having basically no kinetic energy recovery from braking, they might have still be able to harvest some out of the exhaust via turbocharger (which would imply even higher overall fuel consumption) generator to have at least some juice in the battery to run the internal combustion engine properly - mainly from driveability aspect - maintaining the speed of the turbo ALS wise (which supposedly is done via same electric motor-generator on the turbo) etc, but all in all - ROS should have had real fuel saving problems at the second part of the race

All the MGU-K does is provide 160bhp for 33s every lap. The IC engine + MGU-H work independently of the MGU-K to produce 600bhp. The same amount of fuel is consumed by the IC engine, regardless of the functionality of the MGU-K.

After losing the MGU-K, Rosberg was 2s a lap slower. That's the effect of an extra 160bhp for 33s on a lap in this circuit.
(For reference, the previous KERS unit which generated 80bhp for 8s, used to make a difference of 0.3-0.5s to the laptimes. )

This race provides a clearer indication of the gap between the Merc AMG and the rest of the pack.
Merc AMG minus MGU-k = RBR or Williams at their best.
That is close to 2s a lap.

[Vettel Maggot]

Massa was very frustrating to watch, but Perez took him out, no doubt. I think Williams will be very disappointed that they didn't at least get a podium out of the race. New tyres, strong engine and still he couldn't make the moves. Maybe time for Massa to move on, shades of Rubens I am afraid.

[jz11]

when you want to do a 1:20 lap on a track with pure ICE power you need X amount of energy (equals to Y amount of fuel), you accelerate (consume fuel and convert that energy into kinetic and heat) the car, and then brake the car (turn that kinetic energy into heat), etc etc

so we have Y amount of fuel required to move those 700kg around the track in 1:20

now a hybrid will recover some of that lost kinetic energy via braking (mgu-k, which failed), and will require less total fuel per lap to move those same 700kg at the same average speed, and this fuel consumption calculation would be the one they use to estimate the fuel amount they need for the race and which would be put in the car

I vaguely remember reading that they were allowed to harvest from 2-4 MJ of kinetic energy per lap via braking, don't remember the amount for the mgu-h

napkin math follows:
gasoline density - ~0,75kg/l
max gasoline per race in liters - 100/0.75=133l
number of laps - 70
max fuel used per lap - 1.9l
energy per l of gasoline - ~11,5 MJ
gasoline energy consumed per lap max - ~20MJ

so we can assume that for aprox half the race distance ROS had no kinetic energy recovery, which would total to around 40-60 MJ energy, or ~ 4,5l of fuel which would have to come out of somewhere, I don't believe they would carry around that much extra, when ROS got warning over the radio before the race that fuel consumption is critical

there was the safety car period of course, but they would not save this much for no reason at all, they would want to be as close to their fuel consumption delta after the SC goes off as they possibly can

[jz11]

All the MGU-K does is provide 160bhp for 33s every lap. The IC engine + MGU-H work independently of the MGU-K to produce 600bhp. The same amount of fuel is consumed by the IC engine, regardless of the functionality of the MGU-K.

After losing the MGU-K, Rosberg was 2s a lap slower. That's the effect of an extra 160bhp for 33s on a lap in this circuit.
(For reference, the previous KERS unit which generated 80bhp for 8s, used to make a difference of 0.3-0.5s to the laptimes. )

This race provides a clearer indication of the gap between the Merc AMG and the rest of the pack.
Merc AMG minus MGU-k = RBR or Williams at their best.
That is close to 2s a lap.

that would be true if mercs would always be 2s faster than the rest on every single lap of the race, which they usually are not, they build the gap and then coast more or less, which means that the recovered kinetic energy still goes into play of the similar lap time to ferrari/renault cars

[sennaf1god.94]

"Honestly I was the quickest car on the track most of the time,"

"Not with the super-soft, on that tyre I had a similar pace to [team-mate] Valtteri [Bottas], but with the prime the car was amazing - really, really quick - and without this problem in the pitstop I think it was totally possible to be in front of Ricciardo.

"It was a big missed opportunity. We lost a lot of points. We had an incredible car - there were no problems at all.

"I'm so disappointed because it would have been a fantastic race."


"I think the decision was correct to stop,"

"I started to lose grip on the rear, and knowing that normally degradation is not low on our car I'm sure I would have been very slow at the end of the race."

"I wasn't thinking about the victory - I couldn't see the Mercedes very well and I didn't see Lewis retired, so I thought it was a fight for the podium," Massa said.

"They [the team] didn't tell me about the Mercedes problems.

"It was a good track for us so we missed so much, because it was possible to win the race.

"When I was in free air I was the quickest car on the track."

The aerial cam confirms exactly what the inboard appointed in first place, Perez steered to the left to block the pass in a desperate last effort to keep some points at bay.

If Sergio's surname was Maldonado, he would see his superlicense retired and his ass kicked out of F1.

[thomin]

I'm still curious about how they got that merc to the finish line at similar pace to competitors without running out of fuel while having basically no kinetic energy recovery from braking, they might have still be able to harvest some out of the exhaust via turbocharger (which would imply even higher overall fuel consumption) generator to have at least some juice in the battery to run the internal combustion engine properly - mainly from driveability aspect - maintaining the speed of the turbo ALS wise (which supposedly is done via same electric motor-generator on the turbo) etc, but all in all - ROS should have had real fuel saving problems at the second part of the race

All the MGU-K does is provide 160bhp for 33s every lap. The IC engine + MGU-H work independently of the MGU-K to produce 600bhp. The same amount of fuel is consumed by the IC engine, regardless of the functionality of the MGU-K.

After losing the MGU-K, Rosberg was 2s a lap slower. That's the effect of an extra 160bhp for 33s on a lap in this circuit.
(For reference, the previous KERS unit which generated 80bhp for 8s, used to make a difference of 0.3-0.5s to the laptimes. )

This race provides a clearer indication of the gap between the Merc AMG and the rest of the pack.
Merc AMG minus MGU-k = RBR or Williams at their best.
That is close to 2s a lap.

As much as I love Mercedes and as great a drive by Rosberg this was, I think you're overstating your case. Within the realm of Rosberg's bad luck, he was fortunate to have Perez behind him who shielded him from Massa and the Red Bulls. Rosberg was clearly slower than these cars and even Perez could have been quicker despite his ancient tires.

As for the MGU-K, it's not just the loss of power that's an issue, but also the loss of rear brake power coupled with the smaller discs.

However, what has become obvious is that the W05 is an all around great piece of machinery and that it's not just the engine. The way Rosberg cranked out these awesome first and second sector times lap after lap speaks volumes.

[iotar__]

So i was wrong about it. The analysis in the previous page clearly shows Perez moving off racing line in the braking zone. From Massa's on board it looked like he flat ran into Perez.

Not directly at your answer (blame Perez if you want his fault to me too was bigger but it was closer to 50/50 than 100 and I don't want to get into that) but in general:
I wish they stopped pretending they don't change their lines on straights in duels all the time. See Vettel moving across against Perez? Clearly pushing off track in breaking zone while being side by side, not even car's width - wheels on the grass. If Perez closes his eyes, does Massa or Button Hungary 2013 and drives straight which he is entitled to there's a crash. This "unnecessary" move they called it.

The thing is they usually anticipate and react, this one was too fast and they had v. different breaking points. Yes, Perez's was abrupt not gradual, but it wasn't a smooth attempt by Massa either, too close, too fast, too sudden. So no I don't think just moving in a breaking zone ends discussion. Plus Perez, unlike Vettel was clearly in front.

Smedley/Massa shout aloud because they know they screwed up themselves, their menace to society routine sounds fake especially against Force India and them not retiring the car. Wasn't Smedley at Ferrari when they left KR with a flapping exhaust on the track? Usual holier-than-thou F1. S.P. is still 10/10 clearly driver of the day.

[komninosm]

As much as I love Mercedes and as great a drive by Rosberg this was, I think you're overstating your case. Within the realm of Rosberg's bad luck, he was fortunate to have Perez behind him who shielded him from Massa and the Red Bulls. Rosberg was clearly slower than these cars and even Perez could have been quicker despite his ancient tires.

As for the MGU-K, it's not just the loss of power that's an issue, but also the loss of rear brake power coupled with the smaller discs.

However, what has become obvious is that the W05 is an all around great piece of machinery and that it's not just the engine. The way Rosberg cranked out these awesome first and second sector times lap after lap speaks volumes.

I agree. Do you also think he was coasting on the straight to save fuel? (along with saving breaks)

Also why did Merc not take countermeasures for failure as they admitted?

[RZS10]

As much as I love Mercedes and as great a drive by Rosberg this was, I think you're overstating your case. Within the realm of Rosberg's bad luck, he was fortunate to have Perez behind him who shielded him from Massa and the Red Bulls. Rosberg was clearly slower than these cars and even Perez could have been quicker despite his ancient tires.

As for the MGU-K, it's not just the loss of power that's an issue, but also the loss of rear brake power coupled with the smaller discs.

However, what has become obvious is that the W05 is an all around great piece of machinery and that it's not just the engine. The way Rosberg cranked out these awesome first and second sector times lap after lap speaks volumes.

I agree. Do you also think he was coasting on the straight to save fuel? (along with saving breaks)

Also why did Merc not take countermeasures for failure as they admitted?

According to Rosberg it was exactly that, more coasting in order to save the brakes which also led to lower fuel consumption ... and ofc the SC helped a lot with that

[Holm86]

I still feel Massa is to blame for this crash. https://twitter.com/trasnochadoF1/statu ... 4236090368