Model Scale - Windtunnels and Windshear

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
hardingfv32
hardingfv32
35
Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Ferrari F2012

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Crucial_Xtreme wrote: 'The paper' is Texas Tech, and is also over 10yrs old. Technology & construction have come a long way since then....

The bottom line is the closer you get to 1:1 the more likely you are to know or have a better understanding of how the car works & will work when new parts are added. Again if teams could use 1:1 & if they could test at full speed, they most certainly would.
Someone wanted backup and I provided it. 10 years old is about as good as I can find on most our F1 related subjects. These guys are not to eager to publish.

I agree the closer to 1:1 the better, IF the tunnel is large enough to provide accurate results.

Brian

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Ferrari F2012

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hardingfv32 wrote:Todays 'best' tunnel designed to test a 60% F1 model provides more accurate results when developing a current F1 car than the 'best' current tunnel designed to test a 100% F1 car/model.
hardingfv32 wrote:I agree the closer to 1:1 the better, IF the tunnel is large enough to provide accurate results.
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Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: Ferrari F2012

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hardingfv32 wrote:The fundamental issue are easier to manage in a 60% tunnel. That is fact.

A more specific generalization just for you:

Todays 'best' tunnel designed to test a 60% F1 model provides more accurate results when developing a current F1 car than the 'best' current tunnel designed to test a 100% F1 car/model.

Brian
I can, to a degree, understand your line of reason here - but I still don't agree with it. I think the presumption of "all things being equal" isn't particularly valid here.

Let's take wall effect and size as an example. If you were in a fixed sized building, then yes - a smaller scale model would be less susceptible to edge effects. But since when is that a case?

It's like anything else - you cut a functional spec and then do whatever you need to achieve it within what's in your control. For a 60% scale model - to negate edge effects within say "1%" of whatever parameter you deem appropriate... let's say it takes a 15' wide tunnel. So be it, you build a 15' wide tunnel. For a 100% tunnel perhaps its 25'. So you build 25'. Is it more money? Yes - but you spend that to get the increased accuracy of the full scale model.

In fact I'd go so far as to say that keeping your functional spec the same between both cases and having the money to do either way - a 100% scale model is always going to be more accurate than 60%! The only time it isn't is when there's no money to build the appropriately designed 100% scale tunnel - in which case a 60% scale answer is better than no answer.

Make sense?
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
35
Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Ferrari F2012

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Jersey Tom wrote:In fact I'd go so far as to say that keeping your functional spec the same between both cases and having the money to do either way - a 100% scale model is always going to be more accurate than 60%! The only time it isn't is when there's no money to build the appropriately designed 100% scale tunnel - in which case a 60% scale answer is better than no answer.
Completely agree.

It is my contention that the Windshear 100% tunnel is not "appropriately designed" tunnel for testing 100% F1 cars. They did not spend the money necessary accomplish that. The tunnel is in the USA and operating 50 hrs a week. That is not how you amortize a big tunnel investment.

The move to a 100% tunnel seems out of step with the progression in size that we have seem over the last two decades. The move from 50 to 60 was a big event, and here we have a jump to 100%.

Now I would be happy for someone to demonstrate why I am wrong. What was the technological break thru.

Brian

Crucial_Xtreme
Crucial_Xtreme
404
Joined: 16 Oct 2011, 00:13
Location: Charlotte

Re: Ferrari F2012

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hardingfv32 wrote: Completely agree.

It is my contention that the Windshear 100% tunnel is not "appropriately designed" tunnel for testing 100% F1 cars. They did not spend the money necessary accomplish that. The tunnel is in the USA and operating 50 hrs a week. That is not how you amortize a big tunnel investment.

The move to a 100% tunnel seems out of step with the progression in size that we have seem over the last two decades. The move from 50 to 60 was a big event, and here we have a jump to 100%.

Now I would be happy for someone to demonstrate why I am wrong. What was the technological break thru.

Brian
And how do you come to this conclusion? I might add it's obvious the F1 teams don't share your view because they've been here before & Lotus will be here again this coming week. So it would seem that indeed the tunnel is appropriate & capable of accuarte 100% testing considering the teams spend the money for the test & shipping the cars overseas to test here.

One of the most advanced tunnels in the world--> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_Shear ... ind_Tunnel

I mean there's obviously a reason why teams in Europe are coming all the way to Charlotte for wind tunnel testing. Especially considering it isn't the only 100% scale rolling road WT. It's one of the best. :D

Lycoming
Lycoming
106
Joined: 25 Aug 2011, 22:58

Re: Ferrari F2012

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Well obviously if you test full scale cars in a tunnel designed for 60% scale you are not going to get good results.

You contend that the windshear facility is inadequate for testing F1 cars. Ok. Why? What part of it is not appropriate? What do they not have that, say, Mclaren have in their 60% tunnel? Where is it evident that they did not spend enough money? Its a claim made without supporting evidence.

At the same time, I can make a counter claim based on the fact that F1 teams obviously believe the facilities there are not only adequate, but a day there is worth 4 days in the 60% tunnel. So, why might they disagree with your analysis that the facility is inadequate?

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Chuckjr
38
Joined: 24 Feb 2012, 08:34
Location: USA

Re: Ferrari F2012

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Why on earth does Ferrari not have this? Having that in the back yard would even get Montezemolo to stand up and beg for buttermilk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxT3j_3C ... ata_player
Watching F1 since 1986.

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
35
Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Ferrari F2012

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Crucial_Xtreme wrote:And how do you come to this conclusion? I might add it's obvious the F1 teams don't share your view because they've been here before & Lotus will be here again this coming week. So it would seem that indeed the tunnel is appropriate & capable of accurate 100% testing considering the teams spend the money for the test & shipping the cars overseas to test here.

One of the most advanced tunnels in the world--> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_Shear ... ind_Tunnel

I mean there's obviously a reason why teams in Europe are coming all the way to Charlotte for wind tunnel testing. Especially considering it isn't the only 100% scale rolling road WT. It's one of the best. :D
1) I am sure there are some types of testing where wall issues can be isolated. Say cooling systems, maybe floor flows, etc. Still not good enough for the complete external flows.

2) Their 50 hrs a week business model does not indicate 'to me' that they have spent the money to develop a F1 quality tunnel. Their location indicates a preference to the NASCAR teams. NASCAR budgets will not support a F1 quality facility.

3) The jump to an F1 quality 100% tunnel is out of step with the progression of F1 tunnel development we have seen over the last two decades. This is not a linear financial progression going form 60% to 100% tunnel design.

4) The other 100% tunnels are owned by OEM's. So this is the only 100% tunnel available for commercial use.

Brian

Crucial_Xtreme
Crucial_Xtreme
404
Joined: 16 Oct 2011, 00:13
Location: Charlotte

Re: Ferrari F2012

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hardingfv32 wrote:
1) I am sure there are some types of testing where wall issues can be isolated. Say cooling systems, maybe floor flows, etc. Still not good enough for the complete external flows.

2) Their 50 hrs a week business model does not indicate 'to me' that they have spent the money to develop a F1 quality tunnel. Their location indicates a preference to the NASCAR teams. NASCAR budgets will not support a F1 quality facility.

3) The jump to an F1 quality 100% tunnel is out of step with the progression of F1 tunnel development we have seen over the last two decades. This is not a linear financial progression going form 60% to 100% tunnel design.

4) The other 100% tunnels are owned by OEM's. So this is the only 100% tunnel available for commercial use.

Brian
Now you're just being stubborn. #-o

If you honestly feel that the Windshear facility is inadequate, how do you explain F1 teams using the facility? Why would Lotus(most recent) sacrifice 4 days of 60% testing for 1 day of 100% at Windshear? Surely they feel it's sufficient otherwise why spend all the money to pay for the test when they have their own, spend all the money for shipping the car overseas, & the money to pay their staff to use a tunnel that you say isn't as good as the one they have in their own back yard?

Lycoming
Lycoming
106
Joined: 25 Aug 2011, 22:58

Re: Ferrari F2012

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1. How is that different from 60% tunnels?

2. Depends how much they charge. And what makes an F1 quality facility? lots of road car makers have better tunnels because they are not limited by things like the RRA

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: Ferrari F2012

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hardingfv32 wrote:NASCAR budgets will not support a F1 quality facility.
Quite naive.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

akh270
akh270
0
Joined: 24 Oct 2011, 04:07

Re: Ferrari F2012

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Folks lets move this on. This argument is doing nothing more then cluttering up this car thread as it's apparent it's going nowhere.

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
35
Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Ferrari F2012

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Lycoming wrote:1. How is that different from 60% tunnels?
Issues with the test section walls. Read the paper I referenced to get an idea of what is going on.

Now that is not to say Windshear made some quantum development advancement, but where did the budget come from for such a technical advancement? %0 hrs a week is not going to pay for such an advancement.

Dallara built a 60% tunnel during the same time period. They also have 40% tunnel. Why did they not spring for a 100% tunnel if the technology is available? They have the customer revenue to fund such a project. They operate both tunnels on 2 or 3 shift schedules.

Brian

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
35
Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Ferrari F2012

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Jersey Tom wrote:
hardingfv32 wrote:NASCAR budgets will not support a F1 quality facility.
Quite naive.
I must admit that I have absolutely no appreciation of NASCAR budgets. I am up for an education. Maybe on another thread.

Brian

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
35
Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Ferrari F2012

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Crucial_Xtreme wrote:If you honestly feel that the Windshear facility is inadequate, how do you explain F1 teams using the facility?
Your position is reasonable, but not convincing. Lotus is not really budgeting for top of the line F1 facilities. I have then listed as using other teams tunnels. The accuracy of Windshear might be in line with their budget. And will still do not know what they are testing for.

Brian