Could the RBR dominance slip up next year?

[wesley123]

They now have some extra time for 2014 with securing both titles today, this will be an good advantage to them.

You do realize everyone else is focused on 2014 too, right?

Other teams might still want to fight for a position in the constructors standings, while Red Bull will have full focus for 2014 now.

[ringo]

imo they won't be as near dominant as they are now. why? well look at start of 2012 when they banned ebd. they were nowhere near the first place after they copied sauber's exhaust. next year we will see central exhaust so no more blowing gases onto dif, no beamwing ... overall looking cars will have less aerodinamycal grip and they'll have to rely more on mechanical grip. same thing happened to mercedes, after double dif was banned they didn't have any more secrets to show plus they were very slow copying other's (f-duct and shark fin ...).

On the contrary. Having less aero devices, means that the teams must pays more attention to detail aerodynamically.
Now the wing designs will be more critical. Not only the wings, but the chassis and engine covers will have greater contribution aerodynamically. Redbull has a nice headstart in that regard going into 2014.

[ergenomic]

So now that RBR have won four titles, the question needs to be asked why there are not other teams following their exact design philosophy? I cannot understand why there is only one other team (Lotus) using the cross-over channel for the coke bottle and the exhaust. After 2 years of using the same concept there is only one other team? Of course I am not counting the sister team STR.

Designers changing their philosophies, trying to come up with the next big thing, missed the winning edge time and time again. Is there too much arrogance? There would be a more obvious copying of key developments throughout the field in previous generations.

The brilliant RBR philosophy has not changed significantly, has proven successful and has lead the field for 4.5 years. If it was not for the DDD I am sure we would now have Vettel with 5 in the bag and wondering whether he was going to be best ever in 2014.

I want to see some better competition next year. If RBR win again that is fine, and in many ways great, but please, please can there be some decent competition next year?

[McMrocks]

So now that RBR have won four titles, the question needs to be asked why there are not other teams following their exact design philosophy

The exhaust philosophy has to match with the whole car. The RBR exhaust solution brings some benefits but also some disadvantages. Surely all other teams tried the RBR-exhaust in their Windtunnels, CFD`s and whatsoever but they came to the conclusions that the disadvantages weigh bigger. Also RBR is developing their exhaust layout since China 2012(iirc) and thus have a big development advance. Other teams had to invest much money in the new exhaust while new regulations are around the corner. Maybe it turns out now that the RBR-exhaust works better but it is too late for other to try this.

Also the exhaust isn't the only area where RB is dominant. For next year we won't talk much about coanda-exhaust, but there is no guaranty that RB isn't dominating anymore.

[Just_a_fan]

So now that RBR have won four titles, the question needs to be asked why there are not other teams following their exact design philosophy?

Quite simply, the only way to get the same performance as RBR with the RBR design is to copy the whole car. And you can't do that.

To pick a single item and say "that's where their performance is coming from" is naive.

[ergenomic]

Agree with you, there is every chance that RBR will have the best package again, for me the the only chance that things will slip is if the Renault engine is significantly behind the others. There is something amiss with this formula if it is only the team which comes up with a new and successful idea leads the development race... and from that point onwards it is impossible to catch up.

RBR clearly have the most downforce and for 2012 had a unique exhaust, and had one team copy in 2013. Perhaps the other teams need to consider just copying the entire design philosophy, yes that has happened with the pull rod rear etc. but why is there not half a field of RBR clones? Obviously under the skin there are some tricky things going on giving them an advantage, but superficially, if you cannot beat them then join them.

[lebesset]

I think the factor being overlooked here is that it has been the ability of RBR to make the maximum use of the renault engine that has produced such a dominant car ; they could have swopped to a ferrari engine when it was generally reckoned to be more powerful than the renault , but chose not to do that
in my opinion it was because newey could see how to make a winning package using the renault characteristics and he wasn't wrong , was he !

but in 2014 the engines will have very different characteristics , so even if renault produce an engine as powerful as any other [ and why wouldn't they ? ] it doesn't mean that RBR will be able to package it as successfully

I am not saying that newey isn't a brilliant designer , or vettel a brilliant driver , but I DO believe that renault haven't been given the full credit they deserve for their part in the recent success of RBR

[SamH123]

Newey hints that maybe RB 'pushed too hard this season'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24717889

[Holm86]

So now that RBR have won four titles, the question needs to be asked why there are not other teams following their exact design philosophy? I cannot understand why there is only one other team (Lotus) using the cross-over channel for the coke bottle and the exhaust. After 2 years of using the same concept there is only one other team? Of course I am not counting the sister team STR.

Designers changing their philosophies, trying to come up with the next big thing, missed the winning edge time and time again. Is there too much arrogance? There would be a more obvious copying of key developments throughout the field in previous generations.

The brilliant RBR philosophy has not changed significantly, has proven successful and has lead the field for 4.5 years. If it was not for the DDD I am sure we would now have Vettel with 5 in the bag and wondering whether he was going to be best ever in 2014.

I want to see some better competition next year. If RBR win again that is fine, and in many ways great, but please, please can there be some decent competition next year?

I don't agree that teams should have followed their design directly. But i do agree that other top teams could have followed the same philosophy of keeping to evolve the car. The RB9 is a clear evolution of the RB5. Its the same concept, the same philosophy behind the BR5-6-7-8-9. A team such as McLaren have had the fastest car at some point of the season. But they have had almost completely new cars every year. If they had stuck to the things that worked and just refined them just like RedBull have then they could have challenged much more. But it does feel like McLaren and Ferrari have been to busy finding that silver bullet.

[FoxHound]

I think it may already have been mentioned, but teams can see what makes the red bull fast.
Highest rake on the grid, whilst running a soft suspension set up and not wearing out the plank.
No one else can do it, and they are trying.

[Just_a_fan]

RedBull have, according to Newey (in Race Car Engineering, I think), been running a linked suspension system for several years. I don't think anyone else has got that amount of experience with such a system. There are suggestions that they may have a diagonal or left/right linking too. If that is the case, it's one of the things that's been giving them such good traction, especially this year. It also helps them to run their ride heights without falling foul of the plank wear requirements at the front.

Their systems have been developed over several years with a clear lineage from the RB5 to the RB9. It's no wonder they've performed so well this year. Nor is it a wonder that the others have struggled to match them - it's always difficult to make up ground in a series where the rules have matured. You need to find something very different because you can't catch up just by trying to make bigger steps than the others. That's why Ferrari and McLaren have tried a number of things recently such as U-sidepods and pull rod front suspension; they've been trying to leapfrog RedBull.

We've seen this before in the line of cars created by Ferrari in 2000-2004. Only a major change in the rules (regarding tyre changes during the race for example) reduced their performance lead.

[Pierce89]

RedBull have, according to Newey (in Race Car Engineering, I think), been running a linked suspension system for several years. I don't think anyone else has got that amount of experience with such a system. There are suggestions that they may have a diagonal or left/right linking too. If that is the case, it's one of the things that's been giving them such good traction, especially this year. It also helps them to run their ride heights without falling foul of the plank wear requirements at the front.

Their systems have been developed over several years with a clear lineage from the RB5 to the RB9. It's no wonder they've performed so well this year. Nor is it a wonder that the others have struggled to match them - it's always difficult to make up ground in a series where the rules have matured. You need to find something very different because you can't catch up just by trying to make bigger steps than the others. That's why Ferrari and McLaren have tried a number of things recently such as U-sidepods and pull rod front suspension; they've been trying to leapfrog RedBull.

We've seen this before in the line of cars created by Ferrari in 2000-2004. Only a major change in the rules (regarding tyre changes during the race for example) reduced their performance lead.

All the top teams have had their suspension linked front to rear for several years. I can't source the info now, but someone at Ferrari said all the large teams use interlinked suspension to varying degrees and have done so so for a good few years now. I also believe James Allison or Alan Permane once said as much. I believe Red Bull's superiority is almost completely aerodynamic. The KERS rumors also seem silly to me when RBR(specifically Newey) have whined many a time that they're a composite and aero company not a KERS or engine company.

I believe RBR advantage will at least wane a little, as next year with reduced aero, a similar aero advantage percentage wise, would be smaller in actual DF and lap time.

[rich1701]

It seems to me that Adrian Newey's aggressive approach to packaging might cause a few reliability concerns next year. Redbull tend to focus on performance above all then iron out reliability problems.

The minimum weight limit rise will basically mean a 2014 car in qualifying spec will weigh as much as a 2013 car does at the start of the race. Tyre wear will be more important than ever next year. So who is more likely to get that right? That has to be key for a race winning car.

I also think James Allison and Rory Byrne at Ferrari will be a formidable combination.

[Jonnycraig]

I believe RBR advantage will at least wane a little, as next year with reduced aero, a similar aero advantage percentage wise, would be smaller in actual DF and lap time.

Aero is going to be a side issue next season. It's going to be a pure engine formula at least for 2014. As stated ad nauseum by Antony Davidson, an ERS failure next season and your race is over, let alone an issue with the engine itself.

Everyone who is anyone in the paddock believe for whatever reason that the Mercedes package is the one to have in which case RB will be hunting for scraps whilst the Mercs & FIs put their 3rd lap on them.

[Richard]

I’d say a good engine is the prerequisite for winning but peak performance will be aero limited. Engines give the power, but domination requires brains too.

Admittedly the new engines can’t be taken for granted in the same way as now, but the prescriptive rules means they’ll rapidly converge to common performance levels. Then aero will become dominant again, along with a good mechanical system to provide a stable aero platform.

This’ll mean we see a few teams go down blind alleys with the engines and associated packaging in the opening exchanges. That’ll create the illusion of a brave new order for F1. However that’ll be distant memory when we get to 2015.

Put it this way, rule changes do mix up the kaleidoscope but the big team hegemony returns within a year or two. In the case of the DDD, big team hegemony returned halfway through the season.