Electric wheel guns

[chrisc90]

Mzso- I dare bet it is. Look how many new impacts tool manufacturers are bringing out in order to try and beat the competition. Infact, ask any odd in the motoring or mechanic trade about impacts and you will see how dog eat dog on brand turns out

You can dare all you want, it won't make it more likely. And nowadays "new" products are more often than not the same as the previous, only with the visual design and designation changed, a marketing war.

In any case your argument is tired "it's electric so it must be weak and slow" we know from EV handwaves.

I’m afraid you are wrong. Nobody just changes the casing/visual design on the product and claims it’s better to make it a marketing war.

Go on the ‘Torque test channel’ on YouTube and look at the likes of the snapon, dewalt, Milwaukee guns and the detail is there staring you in the face. I know lads in the trade that dewalt would give demo units to and ask for evaluation before bringing them to market - infact I work with the lad who was part of it.

Try it yourself. Get a 1/2” impact cordless and look how they ‘struggle’ to undo something like a engine crank bolt or a drive shaft nut. You will often find they ‘impact’ a good few times before the fastener starts to release. And that’s not even getting involved in the socket on the end, thinner, less weighty sockets vs a design with a bit of weight about it and thicker walls.

It’s a shame nobody will ever get to test out a 450psi air gun they use in f1 to see how much better they are in the application they were designed for.

As someone mentioned previously, look how long it took them to get the wheel nut off strolls car when he returned to the pits with a electric gun. 3/4” Milwaukee from memory - one of the biggest guns you can get near enough.

[mzso]

Try it yourself. Get a 1/2” impact cordless and look how they ‘struggle’ to undo something like a engine crank bolt or a drive shaft nut. You will often find they ‘impact’ a good few times before the fastener starts to release. And that’s not even getting involved in the socket on the end, thinner, less weighty sockets vs a design with a bit of weight about it and thicker walls.

It’s a shame nobody will ever get to test out a 450psi air gun they use in f1 to see how much better they are in the application they were designed for.

As someone mentioned previously, look how long it took them to get the wheel nut off strolls car when he returned to the pits with a electric gun. 3/4” Milwaukee from memory - one of the biggest guns you can get near enough.

Why do you conflate speed and torque? The video linked above claims the torque is not really extreme.
However the torque has nothing to do with the speed. The commercial tools they use outside the race tire changes don't need to be and are not designed to be extremely fast, since it serves no purpose.

[chrisc90]

So it really serves no purpose moving to a electric gun and taking 5-10seconds longer to remove and retighten the wheel nut.
A F1 air gun must literally take 0.5 seconds to remove and retighten the nut to the correct tightness. That’s allowing a second and a half or so to swap the wheels over. (Give it take a few milliseconds)

The speed absolutely has something to do with the torque. Impacts are typically measured in impacts per minute, so the faster your motor can spin the hammer inside to blow against the anvil you get more/less torque depending on how fast it’s spinning, the weight of the hammer and the overall design.
Faster you can get the tool spinning l, the heavier you can make the hammers without compromise and the more torque you can apply/release.

A bit like a mash hammer Vs a sledge hammer. You can swing the mash hammer a lot faster than you can a sledge hammer, but you can’t hit nowhere near as hard.

[mzivtins]

If someone designed a gun that could deliver x torque from the moment you pressed the trigger it would be game changing.

This is my reasoning for thinking electric guns can't really get that close in terms of size, the power draw on the first 1ms will be so utterly massive before dropping down to normal, imagine the heat coming out of the batteries to drive a 2500nm torque instantly and quickly.

Such a challenge, and the engineers getting electric guns to do what they do is incredible as it is!

Slow and heavy seems to be the way at the moment in the industry, F1 is the opposite of that, fast and light.

I bet its the same in F1, air feels amazing, tools are so much lighter and have that power, but then electric just makes you feel so free an untethered

[basti313]

So it really serves no purpose moving to a electric gun and taking 5-10seconds longer to remove and retighten the wheel nut.

I do not know where you get your numbers from...but:
In the F2 race highlights from Zandvoort (Youtube) you can see performance pitstops with electric guns. If you look at races from last year you can see stops with pneumatic guns.

I can barely count a difference in time. With the fact that these are spec nuts and long threads....not extra short F1 threads...

So I would rather say we are talking about 0.5-1sec...

[mzso]

Youtube popped up this video.

It starts up with Paoli guns claimed at 680 Nm. Not sure if the guns are the same performance as F1 ones, but the value is a far cry away from some of the ridiculous values claimed in this topic.

[AR3-GP]

If someone designed a gun that could deliver x torque from the moment you pressed the trigger it would be game changing.

This is my reasoning for thinking electric guns can't really get that close in terms of size, the power draw on the first 1ms will be so utterly massive before dropping down to normal, imagine the heat coming out of the batteries to drive a 2500nm torque instantly and quickly.

The irony of this discussion is the fact that the hybrid systems deliver 120kw power to the wheels with a sub ms response time.

The minimum response time for a pneumatic gun is the local speed of sound as pressure must propagate from a location of high pressure (the reservoir/line pressure) to the drive motor of the gun. The response time for an electric gun can in theory be orders of magnitude higher. Electrons move very quickly in a solid conductor under the right conditions.

[mzivtins]

The irony of this discussion is the fact that the hybrid systems deliver 120kw power to the wheels with a sub ms response time.

The minimum response time for a pneumatic gun is the local speed of sound as pressure must propagate from a location of high pressure (the reservoir/line pressure) to the drive motor of the gun. The response time for an electric gun can in theory be orders of magnitude higher. Electrons move very quickly in a solid conductor under the right conditions.

The issue with electrical motors is the draw that is experienced when the circuit is activated, the first 10ms or less is an extremely high stress point.

With PDM's in racecars, you will typically set things like an onboard starter to have an operating amperage of 30amps, but with a initialisation amperage of 100amps.

This is the same for anything that switches on and off at intervals.

To have a hand held gun that delivers the power and speed of an air gun as quickly as an airgun required so much beefiness that an airgun will win out everytime in all KPI's

[mzso]

The irony of this discussion is the fact that the hybrid systems deliver 120kw power to the wheels with a sub ms response time.

The minimum response time for a pneumatic gun is the local speed of sound as pressure must propagate from a location of high pressure (the reservoir/line pressure) to the drive motor of the gun. The response time for an electric gun can in theory be orders of magnitude higher. Electrons move very quickly in a solid conductor under the right conditions.

The issue with electrical motors is the draw that is experienced when the circuit is activated, the first 10ms or less is an extremely high stress point.

With PDM's in racecars, you will typically set things like an onboard starter to have an operating amperage of 30amps, but with a initialisation amperage of 100amps.

This is the same for anything that switches on and off at intervals.

Ancient problems with ancient solutions. I doubt that a current spike is relevant to something that works 3 seconds at a time. And it only draws such currents if you supply it.

To have a hand held gun that delivers the power and speed of an air gun as quickly as an airgun required so much beefiness that an airgun will win out everytime in all KPI's

I fail to see anything supporting this in what you said.

[vorticism]

A turbine in 99% of cases will be lighter than an electric motor and will be simpler in 100% of cases (composed of one part plus bearing and housing). The use case is specific (turn a nut for 0,5 s with handheld device). A suitable electric motor could be developed but it will be heavier than a turbine for the same application, plus it needs to have a power cable and/or batt/capacitor that is lighter than a pressure vessel holding 200 psi air (or whatever they're running). That too might be possible but the question is: to what benefit? If it ain't broke don't fix it.

IF the air turbine is defeated well it still has a trick up its sleeve: add a combustor and some butane.

[mzso]

A turbine in 99% of cases will be lighter than an electric motor and will be simpler in 100% of cases (composed of one part plus bearing and housing).

And a huge compressor, and hoses, and support for hoses and whatnot... I'm quite sure no mechanic would carry that around in one hand...

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Good attitude, that's why we still use solid logs as wheels...

Not to mention pneumatic wrenches have their own obvious issues:

[vorticism]

Three logical fallacies in sequence used as rebuttal. Please try again.

False premise - no one carries an air compressor, only a hose often hung from a carrier, obv.
False equivocation - "Spending money creates progress. Technological changes create progress."
Exaggeration of fringe incident - I too could post images of phones and Teslas on fire.

[mzso]

Three logical fallacies in sequence used as rebuttal. Please try again.

False premise - no one carries an air compressor, only a hose often hung from a carrier, obv.
False equivocation - "Spending money creates progress. Technological changes create progress."
Exaggeration of fringe incident - I too could post images of phones and Teslas on fire.

I'll give you the first one. Though there's no reason to think that they would be unreasonably heavy, with proper development. As for the rest...

2. Uh, what? You're not making sense. That dumb platitude you expelled serves no point and is in fact always nonsensical. No one tries to fix things that work fine. Everyone can and should try to improve. I guess I should feel happy you didn't use "the reinvent the wheel" sorry excuse for an argument.
3. Pneumatic wheelguns inherently have that hazard, being clunky with the hoses, meanwhile you can design batteries to be safe.

[GSBellew]

If Milwaukee/dewalt/makita could design a gun that would compete with the physics of a F1 wheel gun.. it would be the next best thing.

I work in the motoring trade, where we use Milwaukee/dewalt/makita/snap on…. And it’s a viscous game to be in. Each brand is competing hard for the best break away torque or what not.

If someone designed a gun that could deliver x torque from the moment you pressed the trigger it would be game changing.

I highly doubt there's huge competition for such a small market. Or a slightly stronger tool would make much of a difference.

I don't think people are considering the cost and environmental impact of this suggestion.

Anyone who has a battery powered impact gun or drill etc will know that the battery has a finite lifetime in terms of how much many times you can charge it before it gives up, peak performance drops off pretty quickly when the battery is not fully charged, not an issue when you are not trying to undo a nut in half a second.

If it was up to you would you risk screwing up a pitstop due to a failing battery, so you end up with loads of lithium ion batteries going to landfill instead of just running a compressor.

Compressed air is simple and reliable, it'll likely still be required anyway.

There's no environmental impact. The batteries are collected and recycled. And obviously teams would make sure the tool would be at peak performance, anything else is just plain laziness.
Besides your statement is not even correct. Batteries provide near the peak of their power during much of their cycle. The voltage drops constantly though. Cheap electronics don't compensate for this. F1 wouldn't go cheap.

There is an environmental impact, the mining of the materials, energy expended in making and subsequently recycling the batteries would have an environmental impact.

An air compressor can be run off solar / wind / hydroelectric generated power, the guns themselves are simpler, will outlast battery counterparts.

I still can not see a tangible benefit of changing something that works and is extremely reliable, tried and tested for battery power

[Zynerji]

A turbine in 99% of cases will be lighter than an electric motor and will be simpler in 100% of cases (composed of one part plus bearing and housing). The use case is specific (turn a nut for 0,5 s with handheld device). A suitable electric motor could be developed but it will be heavier than a turbine for the same application, plus it needs to have a power cable and/or batt/capacitor that is lighter than a pressure vessel holding 200 psi air (or whatever they're running). That too might be possible but the question is: to what benefit? If it ain't broke don't fix it.

IF the air turbine is defeated well it still has a trick up its sleeve: add a combustor and some butane.

I asked for Paslode style guns already, but was ignored...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paslode_Impulse