Electric wheel guns

[basti313]

I think F1TV described that at the Dutch GP where there is no space for a extra garage…. It effectively makes the pitlane longer and it plays out differently when the race is running.

I do not think it plays a role....simple comparison between Canada (lowest pitlane loss) vs. Monza (highest pitlane loss):
In Monza you see often different strategies. Last year nearly 50:50.
In Canada where the low time loss would support different strategies...you see 90% similar strategies.

Can you make them as fast as you want on a battery ? I thought about a battery based setup as we wanted to get rid of the wires.

Why do you want to make them faster?

You would in the best case get a wheel gun sponsor who sends tested and certified wheel guns to every team....stock as they are to save cost.

Cost doesn't matter under cost cap.

Clarification:
You need the guns to be as cheap as possible, so that the wheelgun supplier can send more of his sponsorship budget to Liberty.

[DDopey]

Why do you want to make them faster?

Do not want to make them faster. But I think the expectation is that a wireless electric wheelgun is slower than the current pneumatic ones. So if the FIA would make those wireless electric mandatory, they would also solve the current faster pitstops challenge the FIA has.

[chrisc90]

Why do you want to make them faster?

Do not want to make them faster. But I think the expectation is that a wireless electric wheelgun is slower than the current pneumatic ones. So if the FIA would make those wireless electric mandatory, they would also solve the current faster pitstops challenge the FIA has.

I really don’t think there is a problem with being as fast as you can. Not the car leaves the pits safely with all 4 tyres attached then what is the problem? (Guess you will have to ask Mercedes that)

It’s a showcase of pitstop crew skill being able to get a cars tyres changed in 1.x seconds. If your crew can’t get near it by half a second… then the problem solely lies with the team personal and not the equipment

[mzso]

The air guns are pretty loud, even if you are sitting at the end of the straight. So they are pretty powerful I suspect.

A tad silly comment. I can blow a horn and it would be even louder. So I'm even more powerful.

[mzso]

Id dare bet that the air operated guns used in F1 are much faster than a battery operated one.

It’s a bit like the combustion engine Vs electric motor torque output.

A combustion engine needs some time to get up to speed, whereas a motor will deliver all available torque instantly and won’t drop off.

I imagine if you look at the torque ramp rate of a 1” Milwaukee impact gun and that of a 450psi air gun, the Milwaukee would come up in power at say 2seconds duration whereas a air operated one at mega PSI will be say 0.5seconds duration.

If you consider the ‘delay’ in reaching the torque of a electric gun vs air, you would easily have a extra pitstop in the delay of a battery gun getting the nut tight.

Any basis for any of these? Mind your comparison weakens your point, since EVs are known the deliver all of their torque from standstill. And mind you electrons are fast, much faster than air.
Also you keep comparing to an off the shelf electric tool to a specialized F1 airgun.

I think it's more of the case of convention and no-one bothering to design as high a performance electric wheel guns.

[mzso]

So if the FIA thinks these pitstops are too fast and dangerous, electric wheelguns can be the solution.

How? You make them as fast as you want them... Besides it's trivial to make something like airguns slower.
Though I don't think the wheel gun speed matters much. More like the scrambling around.

Can you make them as fast as you want on a battery ? I thought about a battery based setup as we wanted to get rid of the wires.

I don't see why not.

Why do you want to make them faster?

Do not want to make them faster. But I think the expectation is that a wireless electric wheelgun is slower than the current pneumatic ones. So if the FIA would make those wireless electric mandatory, they would also solve the current faster pitstops challenge the FIA has.

I expect differently. I think all/most teams would show up on the first race with custom engineered electric wheel guns that at least perform the same as the current pneumatic ones.

[chrisc90]

Id dare bet that the air operated guns used in F1 are much faster than a battery operated one.

It’s a bit like the combustion engine Vs electric motor torque output.

A combustion engine needs some time to get up to speed, whereas a motor will deliver all available torque instantly and won’t drop off.

I imagine if you look at the torque ramp rate of a 1” Milwaukee impact gun and that of a 450psi air gun, the Milwaukee would come up in power at say 2seconds duration whereas a air operated one at mega PSI will be say 0.5seconds duration.

If you consider the ‘delay’ in reaching the torque of a electric gun vs air, you would easily have a extra pitstop in the delay of a battery gun getting the nut tight.

Any basis for any of these? Mind your comparison weakens your point, since EVs are known the deliver all of their torque from standstill. And mind you electrons are fast, much faster than air.
Also you keep comparing to an off the shelf electric tool to a specialized F1 airgun.

I think it's more of the case of convention and no-one bothering to design as high a performance electric wheel guns.

If Milwaukee/dewalt/makita could design a gun that would compete with the physics of a F1 wheel gun.. it would be the next best thing.

I work in the motoring trade, where we use Milwaukee/dewalt/makita/snap on…. And it’s a viscous game to be in. Each brand is competing hard for the best break away torque or what not.

If someone designed a gun that could deliver x torque from the moment you pressed the trigger it would be game changing.

[GSBellew]

I don't think people are considering the cost and environmental impact of this suggestion.

Anyone who has a battery powered impact gun or drill etc will know that the battery has a finite lifetime in terms of how much many times you can charge it before it gives up, peak performance drops off pretty quickly when the battery is not fully charged, not an issue when you are not trying to undo a nut in half a second.

If it was up to you would you risk screwing up a pitstop due to a failing battery, so you end up with loads of lithium ion batteries going to landfill instead of just running a compressor.

Compressed air is simple and reliable, it'll likely still be required anyway.

[Zynerji]

They should get internal combustion guns with no cords. Im sure Paslode could make a killer one ..

[AR3-GP]

I don't think people are considering the cost and environmental impact of this suggestion.

Anyone who has a battery powered impact gun or drill etc will know that the battery has a finite lifetime in terms of how much many times you can charge it before it gives up, peak performance drops off pretty quickly when the battery is not fully charged, not an issue when you are not trying to undo a nut in half a second.

If it was up to you would you risk screwing up a pitstop due to a failing battery, so you end up with loads of lithium ion batteries going to landfill instead of just running a compressor.

Compressed air is simple and reliable, it'll likely still be required anyway.

Why does it need to be cordless?

Imo, the guns can be switched to corded electric. The act of compressing air is an inefficient and noisy process.

Other benefits are tons of torque and much more precise and instantaneous torque control which will extend the life of the wheelnuts. With a corded electric gun, one could have avoided the situation where Merc machined Bottas's wheel nut in Monaco '21. The guns can be programmed not to apply torque until seated with a simple hall sensor and a small permanent magnet located in the wheel nut.

[mzso]

If Milwaukee/dewalt/makita could design a gun that would compete with the physics of a F1 wheel gun.. it would be the next best thing.

I work in the motoring trade, where we use Milwaukee/dewalt/makita/snap on…. And it’s a viscous game to be in. Each brand is competing hard for the best break away torque or what not.

If someone designed a gun that could deliver x torque from the moment you pressed the trigger it would be game changing.

I highly doubt there's huge competition for such a small market. Or a slightly stronger tool would make much of a difference.

I don't think people are considering the cost and environmental impact of this suggestion.

Anyone who has a battery powered impact gun or drill etc will know that the battery has a finite lifetime in terms of how much many times you can charge it before it gives up, peak performance drops off pretty quickly when the battery is not fully charged, not an issue when you are not trying to undo a nut in half a second.

If it was up to you would you risk screwing up a pitstop due to a failing battery, so you end up with loads of lithium ion batteries going to landfill instead of just running a compressor.

Compressed air is simple and reliable, it'll likely still be required anyway.

There's no environmental impact. The batteries are collected and recycled. And obviously teams would make sure the tool would be at peak performance, anything else is just plain laziness.
Besides your statement is not even correct. Batteries provide near the peak of their power during much of their cycle. The voltage drops constantly though. Cheap electronics don't compensate for this. F1 wouldn't go cheap.

[chrisc90]

Mzso- I dare bet it is. Look how many new impacts tool manufacturers are bringing out in order to try and beat the competition. Infact, ask any odd in the motoring or mechanic trade about impacts and you will see how dog eat dog on brand turns out

[boiler]

In P2 when Strolls car got back to the pits they took the right front off with a cordless impact that looks far bulkier than the one I have for my air compressor and it took ~5 seconds to get the nut off......

[mzso]

Mzso- I dare bet it is. Look how many new impacts tool manufacturers are bringing out in order to try and beat the competition. Infact, ask any odd in the motoring or mechanic trade about impacts and you will see how dog eat dog on brand turns out

You can dare all you want, it won't make it more likely. And nowadays "new" products are more often than not the same as the previous, only with the visual design and designation changed, a marketing war.

In any case your argument is tired "it's electric so it must be weak and slow" we know from EV handwaves.

In P2 when Strolls car got back to the pits they took the right front off with a cordless impact that looks far bulkier than the one I have for my air compressor and it took ~5 seconds to get the nut off......

It's not surprising, since it's not meant to be fast.

[AR3-GP]

It's not surprising, since it's not meant to be fast.

Correct. It's estimated that a team uses something around 40,000 gbp in wheel nuts per race weekend. If you can be more gentle with them (in a non-racing situation), then you can save some money. A lazy pitlane tire swap would qualify as a time to be more gentle with them so that you do not have to replace as many.