Singapore Grand Prix 2010 - Marina Bay

[andartop]

This is inaccurate, Lewis was the defending driver. Webber was passed completely.
Webber was now the attacker.

I guess it depends on how you define "completely".
From the replays, I don't think Hamilton managed to place his car completely ahead of Webber's at any stage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFAAD_ZP1TU

And why is it that everything involving Lewis, he is the one that should be more careful?

Because he was the one who lost out! I did not mean he ought to be more careful. But in hindsight, he should!

The rearward driver is always the one with more responsibility, he naturally has a wider field of vision and knows relative position of both cars.

Funny you should say that now. I clearly remember you saying after the Monza incident that Massa deliberately closed his racing line to guard Alonso!!!

Webber could have done what sutil did...

Again, you misunderstood my post. I said I don't see why Webber should have done anything differently, not what he could have done differently!

[ringo]

whitmarsh:

"I am not laying it firmly. I believe that what Lewis did was right. And I am not here to try and blame Webber, I think he was very lucky to get away with it.

"If you look at the car positions going into that corner and contrast them with what happened in Monza you can almost reverse Lewis's position so we all blamed Lewis last time, we cannot blame him this time. The fact is that they are both motor racing drivers.

"If he had tried to brake late and make a chancey overtaking move then we would rightly be disappointed in him, but the fact is he got past, he was in front when they went into that corner, he had the right to determine that line and the car that is behind normally has to accept that that is happening.

"He had some space but did not take all the space and had an accident, but I don't think blaming Mark is useful. Did Lewis make a mistake in what he was doing? No, he didn't in my opinion."

[ringo]

Funny you should say that now. I clearly remember you saying after the Monza incident that Massa deliberately closed his racing line to guard Alonso!!!

I blamed Hamilton, check back and see. I just suspected Massa's move wasn't all about getting through the turn, but more on defending Alonso's tail.

[zgred]

[andartop]

I'm very happy to hear Martin Whitmarsh is not laying any blame on his driver.

Ok, you win, it was Webber's fault! Here's hoping next time around Lewis and Webber will end up out of the race, Vettel will repeat his Spa move on Button, and Ferrari will finish 1-2 by giving team orders and paying another $100,000!

[megz]

$100,000 for a win? Why don't HRT just buy one?

[andartop]

It was Force India who complained about Hulkenberg, but it would be interesting to find out if it was Williams who brought the stewards' attention to Sutil, or someone else (Ferrari)?

Also, interesting to note Schumi dismissed his coming together with both Saubers as racing incidents:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Uci3ya0eFg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM_TSzQCFrw

...And really enjoyed Webber's comments about Kamui during the post race press conference:

First of all I followed (Kamui) Kobayashi, just for a few laps. I thought 'my God, if he drives like that for two hours it's going to be interesting' but he was really on the limit and missing all the walls and jumping kerbs and I thought 'God, I've got to get past him as quick as possible.

[TheMinister]

Regarding Hamilton & Webber; I'd be so bold as to say an overtaking move is only complete when you are clear ahead. Hamilton never made it fully past Webber, so I'd feel he was very much still attempting an overtake.

But more importantly than that- Hamilton was trying to overtake a faster car around the outside of a turn. It would have been slightly mad for Webber to let him get away with that- sure enough, give up defending when the person overtaking is much faster and has done you up the inside, but let a slower car squeeze you out? Not gonna happen, and Hammy paid the price for assuming Webber would chicken.

Good race all round though, great drives from Vettel & Alonso both- shame about not getting a real close fight at the end, but I guess that's just modern F1... Also big respect to Kubica, showing some great moves.

So we still have the top 5 within a win of each other- great end to the season. Here's hoping for a DNF for Webber & Alonso, points to all others in Japan, to put them even tighter.

[komninosm]

Compare
Hamilton Vs Webber
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFAAD_ZP1TU
to
Heidfeld Vs Schumacher
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM_TSzQCFrw
and you will see that Ham actually was 1 foot wider at the entry.
Hmm, did Schumacher put it in reverse there? I vaguely recall it done in the past (Senna, Schumacher). Or just into neutral?
Kubica Vs Sutil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlZmmB1veNI
Compared to Hamilton, Kubica was way behind Sutil approaching the turn. Even so Sutil braked earlier. Webber could see Hamilton ahead and still braked late. I'm starting to change my opinion. I think Webber should have been penalized now. He did indeed pull a Schumi move. As Webber said he's ruthless, and lucky he didn't retire. When you base your ruthlessness on luck you're a fool. A lucky fool so far, but then again this year it was RBR's championship to lose, and so far they're doing a good job at that :p

About Webber getting a blister on his hand from vibrations, is that true? It reminds me of a race with Raikonnen making a flat spot on his tire and braving on driving with essentially double vision. Until his wheel broke off completely and flew away. When was that?

EDIT: see 6 posts down for Poleman's pictures that prove what I say in bold. Stick to the facts.

[paipa]

It reminds me of a race with Raikonnen making a flat spot on his tire and braving on driving with essentially double vision. Until his wheel broke off completely and flew away. When was that?

2005 Nürburgring. The fact that it happened in the lead & on the last lap made it especially painful.

[Caito]

I believe there's place for two cars. Kubica prove that overtaking on the outside, risky of course.


I believe Lewis was the attacking driver. From his point if view, and onboard camera, it seems as he completely overtaked Webber, but from the outside you can see he's just half car ahead. Webber had the inside line and Hamilton only managed to get 3/4 of the car ahead as he turned into the corner, Webber brake and turned more to avoid crashing. He said he couldn't see Webber( was on the blind spot) and thought had left enough room for him to corner(from formula1.com).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKNY66JSpkE

In the video you can see how Hamilton only gets past half the car of webber when he turns in and closes the line when they end crashing. I think it was a bit of misfortune as he really didn't knew where Webber was.

[Caito]

What I'm impressed is how desperate they're now to sum points. As if the races in the beginning of the season worth less than the last races. Now they should take care, and take risks in the beginning. I see no logic to this.

The same happens with money.. when you've got a lot you spend in a carefree manner, then when you're near the end of the month and you've got very little you start saving.

[Terrible3]

Webber could have done what sutil did, but Webber being webber will cause an accident, he's flustered easily. As i said, I can't remember anyone passing this guy this year, he doesn't allow it. He knows he has the best car and believes that if he's passed by a slower car then it looks bad on his part.

Agreed... Webber will always defend a lost position! He has had a couple horseshoes up his you know what this season. Many times he forced the incident and has ended up coming out better off than his opposition. I hope lady luck catches up to him...

PS: Its unreal how the redbull is known for being designed on the limit thus leading to many failures. Yet today we saw the RB6 go into combat with the Mrc and come out the victor.... odd.

[komninosm]

It reminds me of a race with Raikonnen making a flat spot on his tire and braving on driving with essentially double vision. Until his wheel broke off completely and flew away. When was that?

2005 Nürburgring. The fact that it happened in the lead & on the last lap made it especially painful.

Oh yeah that nightmare year with no tire changes in refueling pit-stops (kinda reverse of what we have now) with the Indy debacle...
So Webber did indeed get a blister? He was damn lucky that tire held and super lucky Ham broke down and not him in the crash, but driving almost 20 laps like that must have been hell with Button behind. Does he still have a limp too? :p =D>

[Poleman]

What is done is history now and i dont wanna flame a post war again but im making this comparison to show that Ringo may be right here:

This is inaccurate, Lewis was the defending driver. Webber was passed completely.Webber was now the attacker.

Images both from the braking point before turn 7:

Mark is almost completely passed (his front wing alongside Lewis rear wheel at least)

1:Hamilton has the position for the braking point-racing line
2:Webber attacking to regain place from the inside while still trying to find a good braking point (late).
3:Webber loses the braking and clips Hamiltons rear (which could be avoided).




Kubica on the other hand here is the attacker and is clearly behind Sutil reaching the breaking zone.

1: Sutil braked eaarly giving Kubica the space to pull off the pass
2:Kubica is given the space to take the exact same line as Hamilton
3:Sutil being more cautious or using his sense pushes Kubica to the point that no contact takes place.



Nothing more to add in this,just my 2 cents on the incident,having in mind Ringo's thoughts.