2024 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 28 - 30

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TFSA
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Re: 2024 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 28 - 30

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Unfortunately, Palmer actually makes several (factual) mistakes in that analysis.

Talking the two overtaking attempts where Verstappen regained the lead (Lap 59 and Lap 63).

Palmer chastices Verstappen for "moving a bit" under braking in those situations, which Verstappen did do, and say he should perhaps have gotten a warning or a penalty. However, he forgets that part of the original moving under braking rule had the condition, that it's only illegal if it forces another driver to take evasive action. Norris didn't take evasive action on any of those laps, and as such, by the original rule, it's not an illegal move on those two laps. It's good defense.

Here's the rule as it was introduced in 2016, Since then, the rule has just been baked in under "dangerous" or "erratic" driving:
With this in mind, and with the exception of any move permitted by Article 27.6, any change of direction under braking which results in another driver having to take evasive action will be considered abnormal and hence potentially dangerous to other drivers. Any such move will be reported to the stewards.

As per my previous post though, and Palmer also touches on this, it was clearly a very illegal move on Lap 55 where Verstappen sweeps across the track. But lap 59 and 63? Completely legitimate defense.


The second part i disagree with, although i won't necessarily call it a factual mistake by Palmer, is the Lap 63 overtake being legitimate and Verstappen being able to stop the car and remain on track. While Verstappen did go off the brake middle of the corner and did a very slight bit of throttle, i absolutely do not see him being able to stop the car and making the corner with Lando diving there, looking at the onboards. While Lando did remain on the track himself this time, this is clearly a too deep and too late divebomb, and he forces Verstappen to make a correction on the steering wheel. That correction is what caused Verstappen to go off, even had he remained on the brake - and since it was forced by Lando, this cannot be reasonably judged as anything but forcing another driver off the track.

SlowMotion Video.

Verstappen have been critisized (and occasionally punished) for similar moves himself, and i definitely do not see this as a great dive. It was a little bit too deep and too late, even if Lando remained on track. On a discussion with Dialtone on race day in the Discord, we both agreed that it's time that the FIA start policing those type of divebombs. They were both racing dirty.

(on a sidenote, Verstappen saying "That's not how you overtake" is massively ironic, since he does it himself all the time)

dialtone
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Re: 2024 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 28 - 30

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TFSA wrote:Unfortunately, Palmer actually makes several (factual) mistakes in that analysis.

Talking the two overtaking attempts where Verstappen regained the lead (Lap 59 and Lap 63).

Palmer chastices Verstappen for "moving a bit" under braking in those situations, which Verstappen did do, and say he should perhaps have gotten a warning or a penalty. However, he forgets that part of the original moving under braking rule had the condition, that it's only illegal if it forces another driver to take evasive action. Norris didn't take evasive action on any of those laps, and as such, by the original rule, it's not an illegal move on those two laps. It's good defense.

Here's the rule as it was introduced in 2016, Since then, the rule has just been baked in under "dangerous" or "erratic" driving:
With this in mind, and with the exception of any move permitted by Article 27.6, any change of direction under braking which results in another driver having to take evasive action will be considered abnormal and hence potentially dangerous to other drivers. Any such move will be reported to the stewards.

As per my previous post though, and Palmer also touches on this, it was clearly a very illegal move on Lap 55 where Verstappen sweeps across the track. But lap 59 and 63? Completely legitimate defense.


The second part i disagree with, although i won't necessarily call it a factual mistake by Palmer, is the Lap 63 overtake being legitimate and Verstappen being able to stop the car and remain on track. While Verstappen did go off the brake middle of the corner and did a very slight bit of throttle, i absolutely do not see him being able to stop the car and making the corner with Lando diving there, looking at the onboards. While Lando did remain on the track himself this time, this is clearly a too deep and too late divebomb, and he forces Verstappen to make a correction on the steering wheel. That correction is what caused Verstappen to go off, even had he remained on the brake - and since it was forced by Lando, this cannot be reasonably judged as anything but forcing another driver off the track.

SlowMotion Video.

Verstappen have been critisized (and occasionally punished) for similar moves himself, and i definitely do not see this as a great dive. It was a little bit too deep and too late, even if Lando remained on track. On a discussion with Dialtone on race day in the Discord, we both agreed that it's time that the FIA start policing those type of divebombs. They were both racing dirty.

(on a sidenote, Verstappen saying "That's not how you overtake" is massively ironic, since he does it himself all the time)
Lando blocks his front tyres on first attempt and goes from being on the inside to being on the outside of the corner during braking. What does evasive action look like for you? Car only goes left or right, can’t jump or fly.

On the 2nd attempt Lando makes the apex and turns properly, hard to call that a dive bomb, he’s also ahead at the apex and thus can practically make Max’s car explode and not be penalized. 100% Max should have been penalized for this one as well as he definitely gained an advantage by being off track.

Again, rules that take so long to be interpreted and eventually aren’t applied are bad rules, but JP’s analysis is very factual.

Sevach
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Re: 2024 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 28 - 30

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dialtone wrote:
03 Jul 2024, 22:29

Lando blocks his front tyres on first attempt and goes from being on the inside to being on the outside of the corner during braking. What does evasive action look like for you? Car only goes left or right, can’t jump or fly.

On the 2nd attempt Lando makes the apex and turns properly, hard to call that a dive bomb, he’s also ahead at the apex and thus can practically make Max’s car explode and not be penalized. 100% Max should have been penalized for this one as well as he definitely gained an advantage by being off track.

Again, rules that take so long to be interpreted and eventually aren’t applied are bad rules, but JP’s analysis is very factual.
He's not ahead at the apex he only appears ahead near the exit, if Max had turned in he would've gotten topedoed right in the sidepod.
And Lando clearly doesn't leave a cars width on the exit.

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TFSA
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Re: 2024 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 28 - 30

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dialtone wrote:
03 Jul 2024, 22:29
Lando blocks his front tyres on first attempt and goes from being on the inside to being on the outside of the corner during braking. What does evasive action look like for you? Car only goes left or right, can’t jump or fly.

On the 2nd attempt Lando makes the apex and turns properly, hard to call that a dive bomb, he’s also ahead at the apex and thus can practically make Max’s car explode and not be penalized. 100% Max should have been penalized for this one as well as he definitely gained an advantage by being off track.
Your post here confuses me.

Before the crash on lap 64, there were action on three laps: Lap 55, 59 and 63

You say that Lando "on his first attempt" blocked his tires and went from the inside to the outside. That certainly didn't happen on lap 59, where he went for the inside, not the outside, so i can only assume that you by "first attempt" are referring to lap 55 - because what you just described perfectly describes what happened on Lap 55.

But then you say that "2nd attempt Lando makes the apex". But if Lap 55 was his first attempt, then the 2nd attempt had to be Lap 59 - that was the lap that he went off track.

So I'm confused about which laps you are talking about when referring to "first" and "2nd" attempt, unless you for some reason are skipping over Lap 59 as an attempt.

I've just rewatched the incidents, and there was certainly no evasive action from Lando on lap 59 and 63. Only Lap 55.

dialtone
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Re: 2024 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 28 - 30

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Watch the video from Jolyon and my 1st and 2nd references are regarding the sequence in his analysis.

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TFSA
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Re: 2024 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 28 - 30

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dialtone wrote:
04 Jul 2024, 01:42
Watch the video from Jolyon and my 1st and 2nd references are regarding the sequence in his analysis.
I've watched it, and this isn't any more specific. He analyzes all 4 incidents (Lap 55 at 1:38, Lap 59 at 3:23, Lap 63 at 6:24 and Lap 64 at 9:30), and you described what i believe to be two incidents where there's another incident in between.

You gotta be more specific, otherwise we're just wasting time and forum space. I'm still confused about which two incidents you're referring to exactly.

dialtone
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Re: 2024 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 28 - 30

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TFSA wrote:
dialtone wrote:
04 Jul 2024, 01:42
Watch the video from Jolyon and my 1st and 2nd references are regarding the sequence in his analysis.
I've watched it, and this isn't any more specific. He analyzes all 4 incidents (Lap 55 at 1:38, Lap 59 at 3:23, Lap 63 at 6:24 and Lap 64 at 9:30), and you described what i believe to be two incidents where there's another incident in between.

You gotta be more specific, otherwise we're just wasting time and forum space. I'm still confused about which two incidents you're referring to exactly.
Honestly not interested. As I said I 100% agree with Jolyon, aside from his liking of dive bombs. Norris takes evasive action at least once, should be penalized, and was then crashed into and was penalized.

venkyhere
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Re: 2024 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 28 - 30

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Just_a_fan wrote:
03 Jul 2024, 11:23
Er, no.
Vanja #66 wrote:
03 Jul 2024, 12:06
Going up or downhill has no effect on aero with regards to ground's coordinate system, if there's no wind it does not matter.
Thanks for clarifying.
However, the lingering doubt I have :
The wake of the car - air is being thrown up-and-behind. Considering the difference in angle at which this wake hits the 'ambient', plain road v/s upslope ; won't the weight of the air column acting vertically down from above, have an easier job 'resisting' the upwards thrust of the air being thrown 'up' from the car ? (and hence, effectively the air stream around the rear wing behaving as though it's a wing with less AoA)

The 'no effect at all' answer is based on :
1. imagination is wrong (weight of ambient air column)
Or
2. too negligible even by the fine granularity with which F1 aero is analyzed

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Stu
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Re: 2024 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 28 - 30

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My only contribution to this is that they were both racing & it danced around the bounds of what is permitted…
Until after the big contact…
At that point MV blatantly tries to (and succeeds!) force LN off of the track, in full knowledge of his own car being damaged (tyre off rim) & not knowing whether LN’s car was (at that point it didn’t look as though LN knew that he was about to suffer a puncture). That should have been an immediate DSQ with points.
Using the car as a weapon!
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

TimW
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Re: 2024 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 28 - 30

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Stu wrote:
04 Jul 2024, 07:41
UnTiL aFtEr ThE bIg CoNtAcT…
At ThAt PoInT mV bLaTaNtLy TrIeS tO (aNd SuCcEeDs!) FoRcE lN oFf Of ThE tRaCk, In FuLl KnOwLeDgE oF hIs OwN cAr BeInG dAmAgEd (TyRe OfF rIm) & nOt KnOwInG wHeThEr Ln’s CaR wAs (At ThAt PoInT iT dIdN’T lOoK aS tHoUgH lN kNeW tHaT hE wAs AbOuT tO sUfFeR a PuNcTuRe). ThAt ShOuLd HaVe BeEn An ImMeDiAtE dSq WiTh PoInTs.
UsInG tHe CaR aS a WeApOn!
Fixed that for you.

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Stu
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Re: 2024 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 28 - 30

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TimW wrote:
04 Jul 2024, 08:45
Stu wrote:
04 Jul 2024, 07:41
UnTiL aFtEr ThE bIg CoNtAcT…
At ThAt PoInT mV bLaTaNtLy TrIeS tO (aNd SuCcEeDs!) FoRcE lN oFf Of ThE tRaCk, In FuLl KnOwLeDgE oF hIs OwN cAr BeInG dAmAgEd (TyRe OfF rIm) & nOt KnOwInG wHeThEr Ln’s CaR wAs (At ThAt PoInT iT dIdN’T lOoK aS tHoUgH lN kNeW tHaT hE wAs AbOuT tO sUfFeR a PuNcTuRe). ThAt ShOuLd HaVe BeEn An ImMeDiAtE dSq WiTh PoInTs.
UsInG tHe CaR aS a WeApOn!
Fixed that for you.
?? Doesn’t that just make it more difficult to read ??
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2024 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 28 - 30

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Stu wrote:
04 Jul 2024, 07:41
My only contribution to this is that they were both racing & it danced around the bounds of what is permitted…
Until after the big contact…
At that point MV blatantly tries to (and succeeds!) force LN off of the track, in full knowledge of his own car being damaged (tyre off rim) & not knowing whether LN’s car was (at that point it didn’t look as though LN knew that he was about to suffer a puncture). That should have been an immediate DSQ with points.
Using the car as a weapon!
I agree. Max's actions to deliberately block Lando at that point, including crowding off the track, should have warranted a further penalty.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

TimW
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Re: 2024 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 28 - 30

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Stu wrote:
04 Jul 2024, 09:17
TimW wrote:
04 Jul 2024, 08:45
Stu wrote:
04 Jul 2024, 07:41
UnTiL aFtEr ThE bIg CoNtAcT…
At ThAt PoInT mV bLaTaNtLy TrIeS tO (aNd SuCcEeDs!) FoRcE lN oFf Of ThE tRaCk, In FuLl KnOwLeDgE oF hIs OwN cAr BeInG dAmAgEd (TyRe OfF rIm) & nOt KnOwInG wHeThEr Ln’s CaR wAs (At ThAt PoInT iT dIdN’T lOoK aS tHoUgH lN kNeW tHaT hE wAs AbOuT tO sUfFeR a PuNcTuRe). ThAt ShOuLd HaVe BeEn An ImMeDiAtE dSq WiTh PoInTs.
UsInG tHe CaR aS a WeApOn!
Fixed that for you.
?? Doesn’t that just make it more difficult to read ??
I was just hoping your post was meant as sarcasm, or trolling. You might have noticed his rear tire blew, which does have a non-negligible impact on the cornering ability of an F1 car.

I guess your 'blatantly tries to force of the track' refers to MV suddenly opening his steering. But that is simply a reaction to his rear tire popping of the rim, as is clearly visible in the footage.

I blame MV for the overly aggressive defending, which ultimately resulted in the collision. But the accusation that he used his car as a weapon is ridiculous.

DDopey
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Re: 2024 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 28 - 30

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Hmmm 8)

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Stu
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Re: 2024 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 28 - 30

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TimW wrote:
04 Jul 2024, 10:17
Stu wrote:
04 Jul 2024, 09:17
TimW wrote:
04 Jul 2024, 08:45

Fixed that for you.
?? Doesn’t that just make it more difficult to read ??
I was just hoping your post was meant as sarcasm, or trolling. You might have noticed his rear tire blew, which does have a non-negligible impact on the cornering ability of an F1 car.

I guess your 'blatantly tries to force of the track' refers to MV suddenly opening his steering. But that is simply a reaction to his rear tire popping of the rim, as is clearly visible in the footage.

I blame MV for the overly aggressive defending, which ultimately resulted in the collision. But the accusation that he used his car as a weapon is ridiculous.
No, Tim. It was the move along the following straight as LN attempted to pass the obviously damaged MV.
The racing was hard (as I said - borderline…), but that move was deliberate. At that point LN still looked to have an intact car and his tyre had not yet started to shred.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.