I don’t think Daimler, FCA and Renault will invest billions into a concept that is still in prototype stadium and will be obsolete before it can hit the market.
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Hydrogen as a race fuel has been discussed in depth in other posts. There are too many problems with hydrogen as a racing fuel; it will never happen. For liquid hydrogen there is the volume problem and there is the storage of a cryogenic liquid problem or, if you want to use gaseous hydrogen, there is the huge volume problem and the pressure tank in a race car problem.
The technology is great, but seems to best in a 3 cilinder setup, delivers power like a 4-stroke 6 cilinder. So probably only useable for high power applications like trucks and long range busses.
It will not be obsolete. Politics won’t be able to stop manufacturers from moving this forward and with it being sustainable they can’t do anything about it.
The big European car manufacturers already stated a few years ago they stopped development of internal combustion engines in favour of EV’s. Nothing to do with politics.
It has everything to do with politics. Not sure what big manufacturers you are referring to because if you look today combustion engines are very much part of there plans.Jolle wrote: ↑06 Feb 2021, 23:33The big European car manufacturers already stated a few years ago they stopped development of internal combustion engines in favour of EV’s. Nothing to do with politics.
These scientists are working on a "hydrogen paste" that could solve some of these problemsRodak wrote: ↑06 Feb 2021, 20:51Hydrogen as a race fuel has been discussed in depth in other posts. There are too many problems with hydrogen as a racing fuel; it will never happen. For liquid hydrogen there is the volume problem and there is the storage of a cryogenic liquid problem or, if you want to use gaseous hydrogen, there is the huge volume problem and the pressure tank in a race car problem.
Briefly, liquid hydrogen has an energy density of 8.5 MJ/L vs gasoline (petrol) at 34.2 MJ/L so you need about four times the volume to produce the same energy as gasoline. Current rules are 100 kg of petrol, about 130 L, so you would need to carry about 520 L of liquid hydrogen for the same amount of energy release. Yes, it would be lighter at about 36 kg. It also takes energy to heat the cryogenic liquid to a room temperature gas for combustion, not to mention the pressurized cryogenic storage tank....
These types of storage media do not solve the volume problem, they exacerbate it, requiring even greater volume and weight for storage; there is also the problem of the extraction rate of hydrogen from the storage matrix.These scientists are working on a "hydrogen paste" that could solve some of these problems
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/tec ... -institut/
The theory with the electrolysis process is that in most countries where renewables are used they only generate for the grid when demand exceeds the ‘background’ supply (fossil, nuclear, etc) which cannot be switched off. At these times any energy potential from the renewable source could be used to create hydrogen (effectively using it to store the energy - a battery.....).Rodak wrote: ↑07 Feb 2021, 18:31These types of storage media do not solve the volume problem, they exacerbate it, requiring even greater volume and weight for storage; there is also the problem of the extraction rate of hydrogen from the storage matrix.These scientists are working on a "hydrogen paste" that could solve some of these problems
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/tec ... -institut/
And how is hydrogen made? There are three methods, cracking methane, steam reforming methane, and electrolysis - breaking water into hydrogen and oxygen. The first two methods require heat and, obviously, methane; methane cracking is not yet an industrial process. Electrolysis requires electricity, and lots of it. So how are these production methods helpful in reducing carbon footprint or our dependence on fossil fuels?
Would you like to share any those plans with us?RedNEO wrote: ↑07 Feb 2021, 00:25It has everything to do with politics. Not sure what big manufacturers you are referring to because if you look today combustion engines are very much part of there plans.
If the future is conversion of renewable energy (eg solar or wind) to motive power in a car, the hydrogen cycle has to compete with battery technology which has a round-trip efficiency of 70% - 90% compared to perhaps 50% for the hydrogen cycle.Stu wrote: ↑07 Feb 2021, 20:19The theory with the electrolysis process is that in most countries where renewables are used they only generate for the grid when demand exceeds the ‘background’ supply (fossil, nuclear, etc) which cannot be switched off. At these times any energy potential from the renewable source could be used to create hydrogen (effectively using it to store the energy - a battery.....).Rodak wrote: ↑07 Feb 2021, 18:31These types of storage media do not solve the volume problem, they exacerbate it, requiring even greater volume and weight for storage; there is also the problem of the extraction rate of hydrogen from the storage matrix.These scientists are working on a "hydrogen paste" that could solve some of these problems
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/tec ... -institut/
And how is hydrogen made? There are three methods, cracking methane, steam reforming methane, and electrolysis - breaking water into hydrogen and oxygen. The first two methods require heat and, obviously, methane; methane cracking is not yet an industrial process. Electrolysis requires electricity, and lots of it. So how are these production methods helpful in reducing carbon footprint or our dependence on fossil fuels?
It will still be only 15-30% efficient compared to 85% or more for an EV. The only way to go beyond that is to add electric motors like they did in F1. So there's no point to keeping ICE around when EVs get adequate storage (which already happened for road cars).Big Tea wrote: ↑30 Dec 2020, 23:44But we are judging this on todays I.C.E. If we can develop a very low (I am not going to say no as it will not happen) emission unit and also renewable fuel to 'burn' in it things may change. If it going to happen, the most likely place is in F1Jolle wrote: ↑30 Dec 2020, 23:27With ICE being phased out entirely in the car industry (although many will be “what about fuel cells, bio fuel etc”, there are nog big manufacturers that are backing this movement) its not logical that a new type of ICE is going to be developed for F1. I think it’s more a political move or fantasy as we all transition into electric motors.
