2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[basti313]

I think Ver was sufficiently alongside here though.

You can save the "line" and "alongside" nonsense for next season. He understeered into his opponent on the exit. Nothing else but poor driving. That is why Max apologized at Pia for it.

Difference is Verstappen also rotated here lol.

By his own poor driving, his fault. This is not the McLaren thread where you need to rotate reality and people need to defend poor driving all season long or need to pretend it did not happen. Just name it as what it is and move on.

10s I disagree -- L1T1 should be less heavily penalized. It's literally the first bit of racing and incidents happen.

It should be penalized like any other corner. Where do you take the reasoning from that the rules are different for this corner?
In contrast, drivers should take it more easy in T1. No one is helped if poor driving kills the rest of the race.

[DChemTech]

I think Ver was sufficiently alongside here though.

You can save the "line" and "alongside" nonsense for next season. He understeered into his opponent on the exit. Nothing else but poor driving. That is why Max apologized at Pia for it.

Difference is Verstappen also rotated here lol.

By his own poor driving, his fault. This is not the McLaren thread where you need to rotate reality and people need to defend poor driving all season long or need to pretend it did not happen. Just name it as what it is and move on.

10s I disagree -- L1T1 should be less heavily penalized. It's literally the first bit of racing and incidents happen.

It should be penalized like any other corner. Where do you take the reasoning from that the rules are different for this corner?
In contrast, drivers should take it more easy in T1. No one is helped if poor driving kills the rest of the race.

Its not about the corner but about the lap. For several years "let them race" was the mentality, especially with more leniency for incidents close to the GP start.

[organic]

Perez scored an average of 1.125 points per GP in the final 8 races of the season. Lmao!

[basti313]

Its not about the corner but about the lap. For several years "let them race" was the mentality, especially with more leniency for incidents close to the GP start.

I do not see this. "Let them race" cost Masi his head and since then we have very clear rules with the driving standards guidelines. It is just that people mostly forgot or up to today never realized that cm rules on racing exist.
And as long as first lap or corner whatever you want incidents could be well judged they were mostly penalized. And should be. Not all of course.
Verstappen has the spotlight on him, no way to not penalize him. I hope that is the case for any other first corner incident. Because "let them race" only works if the can still race after the first corner or lap, right?

Perez scored an average of 1.125 points per GP in the final 8 races of the season. Lmao!

Is already anything known why he DNF yesterday again? Sounded like another burned clutch to me, but I could not find an interview or anything on the recaps about the reason.

[dren]

Perez scored an average of 1.125 points per GP in the final 8 races of the season. Lmao!

Better than I was able to pull off.

[venkyhere]

If we want to analyze the VER-PIA collision technically, it's a clear 10s penalty. The rules are there, and VER wasn't ahead at the apex. PIA had left enough room for VER to dive, brake, and avoid.

If we want to analyze the same thing philosophically, VER should grow up and show some maturity, he has no 'stake' in this race anyway, particularly lap1. If he harbored plans to win it, there is no need for so much risk in T1, especially since redbull had setup the car for 'overtaking in the straights'. It was a blunder move. As for PIA, he shouldn't be so naive and 'leave the door open' for someone like VER, who is not going to pull out of an attempted move, who is the kind of driver to use bravery as a weapon, much like Senna did, putting the 'do you want to crash, I am coming into the wedge anyway' dilemma into the other guy. It's a way of mental warfare. And even after PIA did leave the door open (maybe to defend the center of the track), he should have known it's VER and that 'cutting into the apex' racing line is just inviting trouble.

So PIA is faultless technically, VER is at fault technically. Philosophically both are at fault.

[TimW]

If we want to analyze the VER-PIA collision technically, it's a clear 10s penalty. The rules are there, and VER wasn't ahead at the apex. PIA had left enough room for VER to dive, brake, and avoid.

If we want to analyze the same thing philosophically, VER should grow up and show some maturity, he has no 'stake' in this race anyway, particularly lap1. If he harbored plans to win it, there is no need for so much risk in T1, especially since redbull had setup the car for 'overtaking in the straights'. It was a blunder move. As for PIA, he shouldn't be so naive and 'leave the door open' for someone like VER, who is not going to pull out of an attempted move, who is the kind of driver to use bravery as a weapon, much like Senna did, putting the 'do you want to crash, I am coming into the wedge anyway' dilemma into the other guy. It's a way of mental warfare. And even after PIA did leave the door open (maybe to defend the center of the track), he should have known it's VER and that 'cutting into the apex' racing line is just inviting trouble.

So PIA is faultless technically, VER is at fault technically. Philosophically both are at fault.

Fully agree. I was surprised that Piastri did not fully close the door, especially with Verstappen getting a better launch. Also there was nothing at stake for Verstappen, so he knew Verstapppen could go all in (and gamble Piastri would bail out).
As for the mental warfare, that is the gain for Verstappen. He reinforces the 'mad max' reputation, keeping other drivers wary of him. Although that reputation seems to start working against him with the stewards, 10 seconds for a first corner contact is not common.

[chrisc90]

I’m still under opinion is that optimistic overtake, however lap 1 turn 1 incident so a bit harsh to hand out a penalty given previous precedents

[marcel171281]

If we want to analyze the VER-PIA collision technically, it's a clear 10s penalty. The rules are there, and VER wasn't ahead at the apex. PIA had left enough room for VER to dive, brake, and avoid.

If we want to analyze the same thing philosophically, VER should grow up and show some maturity, he has no 'stake' in this race anyway, particularly lap1. If he harbored plans to win it, there is no need for so much risk in T1, especially since redbull had setup the car for 'overtaking in the straights'. It was a blunder move. As for PIA, he shouldn't be so naive and 'leave the door open' for someone like VER, who is not going to pull out of an attempted move, who is the kind of driver to use bravery as a weapon, much like Senna did, putting the 'do you want to crash, I am coming into the wedge anyway' dilemma into the other guy. It's a way of mental warfare. And even after PIA did leave the door open (maybe to defend the center of the track), he should have known it's VER and that 'cutting into the apex' racing line is just inviting trouble.

So PIA is faultless technically, VER is at fault technically. Philosophically both are at fault.

Agree, apart from:

"he has no 'stake' in this race anyway"

Because he is not a part in the (lets be hounest, completely overhyped) WCC, doens't mean he has no 'stake'. All 20 driver are racing for the same 'stake', finishing as close to p1 as possible. Otherwise they better do something else that day. It is every drivers right to attempt an overtake, whether the other is in some sort of battle for a championship is irrelevant.

[taperoo2k]

If we want to analyze the VER-PIA collision technically, it's a clear 10s penalty. The rules are there, and VER wasn't ahead at the apex. PIA had left enough room for VER to dive, brake, and avoid.

If we want to analyze the same thing philosophically, VER should grow up and show some maturity, he has no 'stake' in this race anyway, particularly lap1. If he harbored plans to win it, there is no need for so much risk in T1, especially since redbull had setup the car for 'overtaking in the straights'. It was a blunder move. As for PIA, he shouldn't be so naive and 'leave the door open' for someone like VER, who is not going to pull out of an attempted move, who is the kind of driver to use bravery as a weapon, much like Senna did, putting the 'do you want to crash, I am coming into the wedge anyway' dilemma into the other guy. It's a way of mental warfare. And even after PIA did leave the door open (maybe to defend the center of the track), he should have known it's VER and that 'cutting into the apex' racing line is just inviting trouble.

So PIA is faultless technically, VER is at fault technically. Philosophically both are at fault.

Agree, apart from:

"he has no 'stake' in this race anyway"

Because he is not a part in the (lets be hounest, completely overhyped) WCC, doens't mean he has no 'stake'. All 20 driver are racing for the same 'stake', finishing as close to p1 as possible. Otherwise they better do something else that day. It is every drivers right to attempt an overtake, whether the other is in some sort of battle for a championship is irrelevant.

He wasn't smart about how he raced at the start; he was never going to overtake Oscar, you could see the contact coming a mile off. If you want to win races as I think Murray Walker once said, “In order to finish first, you first have to finish”. Max won't do that if he keeps diving up the inside and contact takes place. He's been fortunate so far that he's not taken himself out of races entirely with his rash overtake attempts.

[napoleon1981]

If we want to analyze the VER-PIA collision technically, it's a clear 10s penalty. The rules are there, and VER wasn't ahead at the apex. PIA had left enough room for VER to dive, brake, and avoid.

If we want to analyze the same thing philosophically, VER should grow up and show some maturity, he has no 'stake' in this race anyway, particularly lap1. If he harbored plans to win it, there is no need for so much risk in T1, especially since redbull had setup the car for 'overtaking in the straights'. It was a blunder move. As for PIA, he shouldn't be so naive and 'leave the door open' for someone like VER, who is not going to pull out of an attempted move, who is the kind of driver to use bravery as a weapon, much like Senna did, putting the 'do you want to crash, I am coming into the wedge anyway' dilemma into the other guy. It's a way of mental warfare. And even after PIA did leave the door open (maybe to defend the center of the track), he should have known it's VER and that 'cutting into the apex' racing line is just inviting trouble.

So PIA is faultless technically, VER is at fault technically. Philosophically both are at fault.

Agree, apart from:

"he has no 'stake' in this race anyway"

Because he is not a part in the (lets be hounest, completely overhyped) WCC, doens't mean he has no 'stake'. All 20 driver are racing for the same 'stake', finishing as close to p1 as possible. Otherwise they better do something else that day. It is every drivers right to attempt an overtake, whether the other is in some sort of battle for a championship is irrelevant.

He wasn't smart about how he raced at the start; he was never going to overtake Oscar, you could see the contact coming a mile off. If you want to win races as I think Murray Walker once said, “In order to finish first, you first have to finish”. Max won't do that if he keeps diving up the inside and contact takes place. He's been fortunate so far that he's not taken himself out of races entirely with his rash overtake attempts.

Maybe they are not as rash as you make them out to be. Tbh that stick your nose in maneuver is not like Max at all, Lewis has had many more of these types of incidents for example. He usually sends it much harder which actually avoids collisions (it ends up cars avoiding and running of track etc).

[Mansell89]

Listening to Christian Horner he doesn’t sound convinced about Max’s team mate next year does he.

I think the reality is on merit it’s Yuki- but he’s a Honda man and I think they (RBR) don’t treat him the same as their usual stable drivers. Lawson has done okay, but it’s early days and they can’t say he’s earned it yet. A full season in the junior team will do him good.

Does anyone else get this weird feeling we might see Danny Ricc on a one year deal kicking off in Australia next season?

[chrisc90]

Im sure RBR wil have greater say in what Yuki does rather than Honda.

Sure Yuki will know this too. IF, he does get a offer, it would be very silly for any 'lower team' member to pass the opportunity to drive for a front running team

[taperoo2k]

Listening to Christian Horner he doesn’t sound convinced about Max’s team mate next year does he.

I think the reality is on merit it’s Yuki- but he’s a Honda man and I think they (RBR) don’t treat him the same as their usual stable drivers. Lawson has done okay, but it’s early days and they can’t say he’s earned it yet. A full season in the junior team will do him good.

They've messed around too much with the young drivers, and now only have a few candidates to choose from.
I'd put Yuki in the car, I somehow can't see Lawson playing second fiddle to Max for long.

Does anyone else get this weird feeling we might see Danny Ricc on a one year deal kicking off in Australia next season?

While I'd like to see that, I'm sort of expecting he might sign for Cadillac in '26.

Either way the elephant in the room for Redbull remains finding a replacement for Max ahead of him leaving for another team or retiring from F1 to race in other categories. I don't doubt Max when he says he wants to retire from F1 before he's past his prime for other motorsports.

[taperoo2k]

Agree, apart from:

"he has no 'stake' in this race anyway"

Because he is not a part in the (lets be hounest, completely overhyped) WCC, doens't mean he has no 'stake'. All 20 driver are racing for the same 'stake', finishing as close to p1 as possible. Otherwise they better do something else that day. It is every drivers right to attempt an overtake, whether the other is in some sort of battle for a championship is irrelevant.

He wasn't smart about how he raced at the start; he was never going to overtake Oscar, you could see the contact coming a mile off. If you want to win races as I think Murray Walker once said, “In order to finish first, you first have to finish”. Max won't do that if he keeps diving up the inside and contact takes place. He's been fortunate so far that he's not taken himself out of races entirely with his rash overtake attempts.

Maybe they are not as rash as you make them out to be. Tbh that stick your nose in maneuver is not like Max at all, Lewis has had many more of these types of incidents for example. He usually sends it much harder which actually avoids collisions (it ends up cars avoiding and running of track etc).

I've been watching F1 since the '90's. Max is as rash as Jos was, though Max has way more talent. As for Lewis? He can still be rash, but he's honed his racecraft over the years. I think if Max were to be more patient, he'd likely make better overtakes and not risk spinning off the track.