Monaco GP 2010 - Monte Carlo

[DaveKillens]

Once again, Monaco delivers an unforgettable experience for us race fans. Great weather, a great track, and some amazing and heroic performances by drivers such as Webber and Alonso. Kubica definitely earned a special mention, the man has proven to all that he is at the top of his game.

This season has been very exciting, and I'm thoroughly enjoying it.

Well, it had to happen, Schumacher got involved in controversy. And it generated fuel for discussion. I've been busy this weekend and this was my first chance to view this forum. Obviously, when I saw that this thread had 53 pages, I knew what to expect.

What the heck, I'll jump in with my opinion. First off, what happened four years ago is in the past, the man was even punished for his actions. The race was effectively over, the safety car was out there just to put in the last laps, and bring the field home. The article 40.13 of the FIA Sporting Regulations covers this scenario. Michael tried to push the boundaries, got his pee pee slapped. Time to move on.

I am however, concerned about the actions of certain Hamilton fanboys. I have absolutely no problem with his fans lavishing any and all forms of hero-worship on Lewis. What I do have a problem with is the continual slagging and disrespecting on his teammate, Jenson Button. If you believe that tearing down Button somehow builds up Hamilton, all you're doing is proving that your defence of Hamilton is less than weak, it's pathetic. In the team-mate wars Button is easily out-classing Hamilton with better racecraft, the points standings confirm that.

Button was lucky his car failed, saved him the embarrassment. He was passed by barichello? and 2 force indias, dropping him out of the points and he would surely be passed by Alonso.
Would have been a painful race to watch.

This comment comes from a rabid Hamilton fanboy, and it's about Button, who is the curent WDC and also won the last race at Monaco. I seriously wonder how many fuses he would blow if someone treated Hamilton with the same lack of respect.

[segedunum]

I will repeat again. If there is SC in the last lap, the race finishes under SC. As simple as that (it was also that clear for the stewards and most of the teams). In this case "SC in this lap" literally means (informs everyone) that the SC gets in and not as some interpret it as "you are clear to race".

Repeating won't make this any more true. Everyone can assume away that that is what is meant, but there is nothing in the wording of any rule that covers that - as has been pointed out umpteen times. There is nothing anywhere in the wording of any rule that covers specific safety car conditions on the final lap. Nothing. The rule that everyone assumes covers this is itself dependant on the status of the safety car being deployed. It's not a blanket.

That's why they're 'looking into the rules' - which means they will be quietly changed to mention safety car conditions on the final lap.

[lotus7]

Ok , so Ross conceded. The "barge board measuring tape" did not work this time .

[ggajic]

Repeating won't make this any more true. Everyone can assume away that that is what is meant, but there is nothing in the wording of any rule that covers that - as has been pointed out umpteen times. There is nothing anywhere in the wording of any rule that covers specific safety car conditions on the final lap. Nothing. The rule that everyone assumes covers this is itself dependant on the status of the safety car being deployed. It's not a blanket.

That's why they're 'looking into the rules' - which means they will be quietly changed to mention safety car conditions on the final lap.

I would like to point out why it is wrong to assume anything. Imagine this situation: track marshals haven`t been able to clear track and let`s say that accident happened after SC line, in fact let`s presume that both cars and debris were between SC-line and start/finish (SF) line. If we follow 40.13 that would mean that since SC was in last lap (and yet it has to pull into pits because 40.13 states so, that would mean that we would have situation that track is still unsuitable for racing - but flags and lights would be green - so this example shows how 40.13 is absurd and that race under current statements in articles can not end under SC. Assumption that race ends under SC if SC enters last lap of race is just that: assumption. So I`m almost certain that FIA will have to rewrite this articles.. I`m looking forward for announced meeting!

[ggajic]

Ok , so Ross conceded. The "barge board measuring tape" did not work this time .

Ross outsmarted FIA on many occasions, just to mention few: 1999 (Malasyian GP), 2003 (Michelin), last year (DDD), so I`m almost certain that he got it right this time too... FIA should employ someone not with half brain to write rules or look into them more seriously..

[alberto222mx]

I will repeat again. If there is SC in the last lap, the race finishes under SC.

The rule 40.13 didn´t says such thing, is your interpretation as can be many others if the rule doesn´t specifies it.

As simple as that (it was also that clear for the stewards and most of the teams). In this case "SC in this lap" literally means (informs everyone) that the SC gets in and not as some interpret it as "you are clear to race".

The message "SC in this lap" is send only when the track is clear and safe according to the rule 40.11.

[alberto222mx]

BTW, Any Massa´s comment about the maneuver? I haven´t found anything but I guess after his incident with Alonso in China he would be pleased

[komninosm]

Repeating won't make this any more true. Everyone can assume away that that is what is meant, but there is nothing in the wording of any rule that covers that - as has been pointed out umpteen times. There is nothing anywhere in the wording of any rule that covers specific safety car conditions on the final lap. Nothing. The rule that everyone assumes covers this is itself dependant on the status of the safety car being deployed. It's not a blanket.

That's why they're 'looking into the rules' - which means they will be quietly changed to mention safety car conditions on the final lap.

I would like to point out why it is wrong to assume anything. Imagine this situation: track marshals haven`t been able to clear track and let`s say that accident happened after SC line, in fact let`s presume that both cars and debris were between SC-line and start/finish (SF) line. If we follow 40.13 that would mean that since SC was in last lap (and yet it has to pull into pits because 40.13 states so, that would mean that we would have situation that track is still unsuitable for racing - but flags and lights would be green - so this example shows how 40.13 is absurd and that race under current statements in articles can not end under SC. Assumption that race ends under SC if SC enters last lap of race is just that: assumption. So I`m almost certain that FIA will have to rewrite this articles.. I`m looking forward for announced meeting!

Why would the flags and lights be green at that situation?

[i70q7m7ghw]

I think the real major error here is the FIA's - they have failed to update the rules properly resulting a different SC rule on the last lap from every other lap of the race.

IMO - Schumacher's move was in the spirit of the rules and was OK. But it is not compliant with what is actually written on paper.

[Richard]

I would like to point out why it is wrong to assume anything. Imagine this situation: track marshals haven`t been able to clear track and let`s say that accident happened after SC line, in fact let`s presume that both cars and debris were between SC-line and start/finish (SF) line.

That scenario is a good example and shows how the rules do work if correctly applied. What should happen is that the "Safety car depolyed" status would still apply under 40.4 with yellow flags and SC boards until the cars get to parc ferme. Rule 40.4 is quite explicit about defining the "duration of the intervention".

The fact that the SC has pulled into the pits under rule 40.13 makes no difference to the track status.

[komninosm]

Well, Mercedes won't appeal the penalty:

With the FIA having agreed to look into the rules at the next meeting of the Sporting Working Group, Mercedes GP has decided it will not continue with its appeal.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83721

Didn't they already file an appeal? So are they dropping/withdrawing it or never filed it?
There goes half the fun. That appeal court would have been hilarious to watch. Everybody would be half-guilty of something and squirming not to appear so.

[komninosm]

I would like to point out why it is wrong to assume anything. Imagine this situation: track marshals haven`t been able to clear track and let`s say that accident happened after SC line, in fact let`s presume that both cars and debris were between SC-line and start/finish (SF) line.

That scenario is a good example and shows how the rules do work if correctly applied. What should happen is that the "Safety car depolyed" status would still apply under 40.4 with yellow flags and SC boards until the cars get to parc ferme. Rule 40.4 is quite explicit about defining the "duration of the intervention".

The fact that the SC has pulled into the pits under rule 40.13 makes no difference to the track status.

You're forgetting that 40.13 is absurd and obviously never applies in any situation
/sarcasm

[komninosm]

I committed no fallacy in that post because I made no argument.

Whatever sunshine. You feel free to live in your own fantasy world but there's no reason to pollute this thread with pointless posts.

Also I did discuss the wording of 40.13 so stop spreading your falsehoods.

Once again, you don't back that up. Your meaningless posts are still based on an assumption of what 40.13 is supposed to mean, not what it actually says.

What I dislike is people shouting they have the right answer in this and being obnoxious about it.

Feel free then to delete nearly all your posts. Since you mention it, is there sunshine in Never Never Land?

What any document "actually says" is the most basic interpretation of a document. Everything is interpretation. We can only judge which is the more correct one. Do I really need to back up that I talked about both what 40.13 means and what it can be interpreted to have been supposed to mean (in the spirit of the rules)? I did do that. Whether my arguments were wrong or not is irrelevant, since you accuse me of complete lack of an attempt to discuss the wording of 40.13 not that my attempt was poor or wrong.

You can "lol" all you want, in fact it only further proves my point. I said pretty early I was unsure of this issue. You are the one (and others) who parade your egos with arrogant poorly based certainty.

[tok-tokkie]

The problem is that green flags/lights were clearly shown giving the go ahead to race. In normal race conditions, once greens are shown the race is on. Schumacher is unfortunately on the wrong side of the regs however, the person that controls the signals appears to have messed up.

Many people believe this and I did as well. But it is not true. The meaning of the green flag is defined by appendix H of the international sporting code.

4.1.2 Flag signals to be used at observation posts:
f) Green flag: This should be used to indicate that the track is clear and should be waved at the observation post immediately after the incident that necessitated the use of one or more yellow flags.
-
It may also be used, if deemed necessary by the Clerk of the Course, to signal the start of a warm-up lap or the start of a practice session.

As you see here it only signals that the track is clear of dangers that were previously indicated by yellow flags. It is not a signal that allows racing per se. So based on that regulation drivers can safely increase their speed again. But if another rule forbids overtaking the green flag isn't actually contradicting that interdiction.

You kids have been going on & on each repeating what you have said before. WB posted the definitive thing about what a green flag signifies yesterday & has now posted it again but you all continue with this juvenile 'debate'. Ross Brawn has now withdrawn to appeal. Would you lot now please desist.

[ggajic]

You're forgetting that 40.13 is absurd and obviously never applies in any situation
/sarcasm

You are forgetting that since SC pulled before SF line - race never ends under SC. Absurd here is that SC and SF lines are separated. If they remained same - SC could pull into pits - lights can go green - cars would have to pass in processing order over SF line without overtaking.