Lotus E21 Renault

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
Hobbs04
Hobbs04
5
Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 19:18

Re: Lotus E21 Renault

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Rikhart wrote:This BS about the "sparks" needs to stop, they were doing that all of last year as well. It´s nothing new, but since they won in dominant fashion, everyone is looking for "the secret".
It is something new when in certain tracks we always see sparks on all cars, ala Singapore, but I never saw another car sparking regularly as kimi's beginning to end. Kimi had DRS open passing one of the Caterhams on front straight and showered a bunch of sparks that was around lap 50.

Drewd11
Drewd11
5
Joined: 11 Feb 2013, 01:14

Re: Lotus E21 Renault

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Hobbs04 wrote:
Rikhart wrote:
It is something new when in certain tracks we always see sparks on all cars, ala Singapore, but I never saw another car sparking regularly as kimi's beginning to end. Kimi had DRS open passing one of the Caterhams on front straight and showered a bunch of sparks that was around lap 50.
I saw alot of sparks in very specific places on the track, most notably on braking into turn 1. This area is notoriously bumpy, and so I think what you are seeing and (incessantly) debating is simply front suspension compression under braking coupled with soft heave damping leading to sparks from the leading edges of the floor.

korzeniow
korzeniow
24
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 03:51
Location: Cracow/Poland

Re: Lotus E21 Renault

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shelly wrote:
korzeniow wrote:@shelly

3rd winter test, morning of 1st March:

http://i.imgur.com/sXsk95i.jpg

That's the DRD device. Not last year's DDRS blowing the beam wing
I know the difference: what I meant is that the vertical piece of carbon connected to the mainplane in my opinion is not a drd component. What suggests me so is that a similar pillar was run by rbr in winter testing before the beginning of 2012 season, and after that we have seen it again in abu dhabi young drivers test only.
While in abudhabi the drd was already a hot topic, in february 2012 nobody was thinking of it, still rbr was running in test with that fitted on the rb8 (in the rb9 thread some days ago i have put the link to those pictures). So i think it is something different, maybe a yaw sensor for aero rear wing assessment, or a support for a load cell.

It could well be also that now instead of whatever they were running last year thay are mounting a drd pipe in that position, but for the moment I think different. We will see later I think
I went 13 pages back in RBR thread and you didn't post anything to prove what you are saying. And I mean any link.

And the vertical pipe on the image I posted is clearly copy of Lotus' one. It works on the same principle as there are slots at the end that stall the main plate.
It's been a long time since we drove last time, but it has also been a short time at the same time
Roam Grosjean ponders the passing of time on the first day of testing at Jerez
February 5, 2013

BoBee
BoBee
0
Joined: 20 Mar 2013, 01:42

Re: Lotus E21 Renault

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Im not at all fluent in aero stuff but could anyone tell me if its possible to stall the diffuser? IMO that could give u a lot more straight line speed than just stalling the rear wing...

I though that as for long time we hvnt seen the ""pipe" used in testing-practices. Maybe Lotus is exploring a different way of using "the device"

wesley123
wesley123
204
Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: Lotus E21 Renault

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stalling the diffuser is useless since it is already a fairly efficient device. Not to mention it would cause pressure buildup under the floor. So stalling it would probably cause more drag instead of less.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

BoBee
BoBee
0
Joined: 20 Mar 2013, 01:42

Re: Lotus E21 Renault

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wesley123 wrote:stalling the diffuser is useless since it is already a fairly efficient device. Not to mention it would cause pressure buildup under the floor. So stalling it would probably cause more drag instead of less.
Well im a bit concern from what i hv seen on the pictures so far. Just had a though if u use that pipe in flex-stopping mount(which is not proven it exists) to create strong jet blowing under the floor, that would look to me like Coanda effect. The air passing from the front at speed would avoid the jet (like pillar) and than join later to work strongly on the center of diffuser(i assume the air would create tear like shape).
If u can manage to regulate the strength of that jet, perhaps u could also regulate the strength of diffuser as well, as u could maintain the place where the air streams meet).
Ok i know it may not make much sense to you but i also though about something like pseudoelastic memory dampers that could "to some extend" maintain the ride high. Given that, the pressure buildup and drag would possibly hv very little effect on the system.

Im sorry if that looks nonsense, im just keep wondering what those gizmos r for and weather Lotus have found something that nobody though about.
Thanks for reading

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Lotus E21 Renault

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I have some shameless self-promotion for you, BoBee. You might find it interesting.

BoBee
BoBee
0
Joined: 20 Mar 2013, 01:42

Re: Lotus E21 Renault

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bhallg2k wrote:I have some shameless self-promotion for you, BoBee. You might find it interesting.

Well forgotten ur post.
But im talking about something else. Ur model takes the from around the sidepods while i was thinking about working under the floor.
There is nothing about self promotion here, just seeking some unswers.
Thanks for linc

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Lotus E21 Renault

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I'll explain it a bit better, because I believe they do, in fact, "stall" the diffuser.

Image

The central part of the diffuser is blown via the starter motor hole, which is fed from the sidepod tunnels on top of the car (see: my other post). This blown flow (blue arrow above) energizes airflow under the diffuser so that it stays attached to it in spite of the steep angle at the end. When the tunnels choke above a certain speed, the starter motor hole ceases to be blown, because it's no longer fed, and airflow under the diffuser detaches as a result, which then "stalls" the diffuser. This means the diffuser only works when it needs to. This at least applies to the central section of the diffuser. I think.

BoBee
BoBee
0
Joined: 20 Mar 2013, 01:42

Re: Lotus E21 Renault

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bhallg2k wrote:I'll explain it a bit better, because I believe they do, in fact, "stall" the diffuser.

http://i.imgur.com/YX688nk.jpg

The central part of the diffuser is blown via the starter motor hole, which is fed from the sidepod tunnels on top of the car (see: my other post). This blown flow (blue arrow above) energizes airflow under the diffuser so that it stays attached to it in spite of the steep angle at the end. When the tunnels choke above a certain speed, the starter motor hole ceases to be blown, because it's no longer fed, and airflow under the diffuser detaches as a result, which then "stalls" the diffuser. This means the diffuser only works when it needs to. This at least applies to the central section of the diffuser. I think.
It sounds reasonable.
I hv realised they have some hole in a keel in front of the floor. Would that play a part in it too? If that hole "tunnel" could be connected to starter motor hole it could be used to stall it and than diffuser as you mention.In addition to that it could to choke the "side pod tunnels" as well resulting in less drag.
Well thats very similar but the other way around.

In my previous post i was trying to find the purpose of that flex limiting tube, rod or whatever it is.
It looks to me like tube so i though it can be used to create some jet just under reference plank but now i relised that it may be prohibited to hv any slots in that area...?

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Lotus E21 Renault

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I'm not sure what you mean by "flex-stopping mount" or "flex limiting tube." But, I can tell you that the hole in the "keel" is most likely for KERS cooling, and the sidepod tunnels choke when the mass flow rate overcomes the ability of the vents (on top of the floor and the starter motor hole under the floor) to discharge air drawn into them.

If this device on the Red Bull what you referenced as a "flex-stopping mount" or "flex limiting tube"?

Image

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
21
Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

Re: Lotus E21 Renault

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bhallg2k wrote:When the tunnels choke above a certain speed
It won't choke at the speeds an F1 car goes at.

To do that, the tunnel throat would have to be sonic, and the pressure ratios at 200 mph are far too low to enable that, no matter what contraction & expansion ratios you use in the tunnel.

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
21
Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

Re: Lotus E21 Renault

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bhallg2k wrote:I'll explain it a bit better, because I believe they do, in fact, "stall" the diffuser.
I think that has been discussed at length in the past on here.


Its something else we disagree on!

stefan_
stefan_
696
Joined: 04 Feb 2012, 12:43
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: Lotus E21 Renault

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Malaysia 2013 - Wednesday (20.03.2013)

Image

Image
"...and there, very much in flames, is Jacques Laffite's Ligier. That's obviously a turbo blaze, and of course, Laffite will be able to see that conflagration in his mirrors... he is coolly parking the car somewhere safe." Murray Walker, San Marino 1985

shelly
shelly
136
Joined: 05 May 2009, 12:18

Re: Lotus E21 Renault

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korzeniow wrote:
shelly wrote:
korzeniow wrote:@shelly

3rd winter test, morning of 1st March:

http://i.imgur.com/sXsk95i.jpg

That's the DRD device. Not last year's DDRS blowing the beam wing
I know the difference: what I meant is that the vertical piece of carbon connected to the mainplane in my opinion is not a drd component. What suggests me so is that a similar pillar was run by rbr in winter testing before the beginning of 2012 season, and after that we have seen it again in abu dhabi young drivers test only.
While in abudhabi the drd was already a hot topic, in february 2012 nobody was thinking of it, still rbr was running in test with that fitted on the rb8 (in the rb9 thread some days ago i have put the link to those pictures). So i think it is something different, maybe a yaw sensor for aero rear wing assessment, or a support for a load cell.

It could well be also that now instead of whatever they were running last year thay are mounting a drd pipe in that position, but for the moment I think different. We will see later I think
I went 13 pages back in RBR thread and you didn't post anything to prove what you are saying. And I mean any link.

And the vertical pipe on the image I posted is clearly copy of Lotus' one. It works on the same principle as there are slots at the end that stall the main plate.
@korzeniov : check mg post in the rb9 thread on march 1st. 2013 at 11:34 or check crucial extreme post in rb8 thread form february 24th 2012. Nowyou see what i mean?
twitter: @armchair_aero