Could the RBR dominance slip up next year?

[Holm86]

...
Well, there was a piece of news related to Mercedes asking Pirelli to widen the rear tyres and they provided an evidence in form of the amount of torque that would be generated by New Mercedes engine. Pirelli has seen that and are worried about the effect of such a torque on their new tyres. Because of which, there is a buzz around that, Mercedes has an advantage on engine side.

Which is nonsense, speaks volumes about the journos' technical understanding. The engine's torque means nothing as there is a gearbox before the wheels, what matters is shear-force on the contact-patch, which is Power over Speed and nothing else.

But in either case, I'm certain that the load on the tyres is much higher during braking than accelleration, when braking power can get close to 3000 kW (4000 Hp) according to Brembo; http://formula1.brembo.com/en/?lang=en

I agree with you. But you have to take into consideration that braking happens through all 4 wheels. Engine power only through 2. And the braking power needed is equal to the speed. More speed more power needed. And at higher speeds where most braking power is needed you have the most downforce and most grip.

Its different with the engine power. There you got the most power at lower speeds. And you could easily quadruple the torque of the engine in 1. gear depending on ratio. And at this point the wheel is standing still. Which makes it easier to brake contact with the road surface. I guess thats why Pirelli wants bigger rears next year.

[xpensive]

Again, the engine torque means nothing, it's all about Power, where Power is always Force time Speed.

Example;

If you have 550 000 W (750 hp), the shear-force in Newton on the driving wheels contact-patches will be 550 000 over Speed in m/sec, why in theory force will be infinite at zero speed, which in turn xplains wheelspin at the start and not at 200 km/h.

But you are correct on the braking power, the max 3000 000 W, over four wheels will be at top speed, why the resulting shear force is not directly comparable, but you can also look at it another way; Force is Mass times Accelleration, positive or negative.

If am quite convinced that an F1 car's Accelleration does not xceed its Deceleration, but then again its two wheels vs four.

[Holm86]

Again, the engine torque means nothing, it's all about Power, where Power is always Force time Speed.

Example;

If you have 550 000 W (750 hp), the shear-force in Newton on the driving wheels contact-patches will be 550 000 over Speed in m/sec, why in theory force will be infinite at zero speed, which in turn xplains wheelspin at the start and not at 200 km/h.

But you are correct on the braking power, the max 3000 000 W, over four wheels will be at top speed, why the resulting shear force is not directly comparable, but you can also look at it another way; Force is Mass times Accelleration, positive or negative.

If am quite convinced that an F1 car's Accelleration does not xceed its Deceleration, but then again its two wheels vs four.

Just remember that those 750 hp is at a 1:1 ratio. And 1. gear is not a 1:1 ratio.

[xpensive]

Doesn't matter, Power is Power regardless of gearing, which is why Power equals Force times Speed is so useful.

[Holm86]

I know that the Kw doesnt change according to gearing. But NM does.

And a higher NM number would make it easier for the wheel to slip?

[Blanchimont]

The torque at the crankshaft may be higher for the new engines, but the torque at the driven wheels is crankshaft torque times gear ratio. And the gear ratio will change as the engine rpm will change!

[Tommy Cookers]

the maximum torque at the wheels will be greatest when the engine is running at its max power rpm not its max torque rpm
(if it is in the right gear, that's why they have gearboxes)
so the 2014 cars won't present a higher torque to the tyres because their max power is no greater than in the 2013 cars
even though the max 2014 crankshaft torque is much greater, the max driveshaft torque won't be different
the max 2014 crankshaft torque is much greater than 2013s because the max power is about the same as but the rpm much less

[Holm86]

Doesn't matter, Power is Power regardless of gearing, which is why Power equals Force times Speed is so useful.

And what you are talking about is the the power working thorugh the tires. And there i agree with you. It will not be higher than at deacceleration. But what im talking about is when the wheel will slip. I think that is what Pirelli wanted to prevent. Not because the tires couldnt handle the extra power.

[Holm86]

the maximum torque at the wheels will be greatest when the engine is running at its max power rpm not its max torque rpm
(if it is in the right gear, that's why they have gearboxes)
so the 2014 cars won't present a higher torque to the tyres because their max power is no greater than in the 2013 cars
even though the max 2014 crankshaft torque is much greater, the max driveshaft torque won't be different
the max 2014 crankshaft torque is much greater than 2013s because the max power is about the same as but the rpm much less

I guess youre right. That the ratio compensates for the lower revs and thus will be lower. So even though torque is much higher at the engine it wont be at the wheels because of the lower ratio.

[WhiteBlue]

So why are we having his discussion here for the n-th time. I think the Newey factor will be bigger in terms of determining who will dominate next year. Apparently Red Bull are alreday busily learning things for next year with this year's car. Even Ross Brawn gets concerned about this.

I like to watch Vettel rake in more champiuonships but I'm aware that it becomes boring for the show. My opinion is that Red Bull are allowed too much influece on the regulations. The have stopped the Turbo engine development by freezing it. They have successfully stopped any meaningful cost or resource control on the chassis side. And they fight any change that reduces the massive competitive advantage of aerodynamic research. At least that is my view of what is happenening.

I'm fundamentally opposed to all this and I feel it is not good for F1. The problem is that Berne only respects people who make tons of money, like Mateschitz. As long as this old goat controls all the important decisions we will not see the necessary change.

[xpensive]

Because it is still very important to understand the very concept of torque and its relation to energy per time unit.

[Holm86]

So why are we having his discussion here for the n-th time. I think the Newey factor will be bigger in terms of determining who will dominate next year. Apparently Red Bull are alreday busily learning things for next year with this year's car. Even Ross Brawn gets concerned about this.

Because once again it started with those stupid "Mercedes will have a huge advantage next year" claims.

They pop up in every thread about 2014. And they have to be disclaimed constantly.

[Bredd]

http://www.espn.co.uk/redbull/motorspor ... 34131.html

That link isn't to feed the current engine ting yang, but just to reinforce the fact that it will be whoever comes up with the best combined package. However as newey states a lot of a teams performace next year is going to come from their engine package in not just power but reliability. This reliability will determine the championship IMO.

[Cold Fussion]

...
Well, there was a piece of news related to Mercedes asking Pirelli to widen the rear tyres and they provided an evidence in form of the amount of torque that would be generated by New Mercedes engine. Pirelli has seen that and are worried about the effect of such a torque on their new tyres. Because of which, there is a buzz around that, Mercedes has an advantage on engine side.

Which is nonsense, speaks volumes about the journos' technical understanding. The engine's torque means nothing as there is a gearbox before the wheels, what matters is shear-force on the contact-patch, which is Power over Speed and nothing else.

But in either case, I'm certain that the load on the tyres is much higher during braking than accelleration, when braking power can get close to 3000 kW (4000 Hp) according to Brembo; http://formula1.brembo.com/en/?lang=en

It could be that out of the slow corners, where the current cars are outside of the power band (Which I presume to be around 16-18k rpm), the next years cars may not be outside of it and are thus transmitting more power at lower speeds and require larger tyres. With the power curve being fairly flat from 10500-15000 rpm next year, combined with 8 gears, it's possible they might always be in the power band.

I do agree their technical knowledge is lacking though.

[xpensive]

That was indeed an interesting xplanation CF. Dix points.

With a virtually flat powercurve from 10500 to 15000 Rpm and spooling up of the turbo by means of the MGU-H,
it will be rather difficult not to always be inside peak power, even around Monaco or out of the Montreal hairpin.

That is most probably what MHPE/Mercedes meant but was totally misunderstood by the journo.

@Bredd; Newey would say that, wouldn't he?