Belgian GP 2008

[The FOZ]

Jeez, what a mess.

The FIA, Mosley, and Ecclestone need to realise this and realise it well:

Even IF there is no bias towards Ferrari, the generally held opinion is that there IS.

And I'm a huge fan of the red team.

If they want to take Formula 1 anywhere good, they need to clean up their rules, their rules processes, and how the rules are applied.

While F1 doesn't have the luxury, of, say the NHL, where you can review the goal upstairs before the next play begins, the stewards need to act, and act fast, and decisively. Something like this:

The teams have 5 minutes after the race to protest, in writing, any decision made by officials, or any actions by opposing teams. Should a protest occur, the race results are not yet released pending the result of the protest. Go through the protest process. If a ruling is changed or made as a result of the protest, the negatively affected team(s) must appeal immediatly. Sort it out. Then, the results of the race are released, written in stone. And the whole bloody thing is televised, so the public can see just how straightforward and transparent it is.

Changing the outcome of the race after the trophies are handed out just seems to cheapen the whole race and outcome, I think.

[Scotracer]

Petition:

http://www.petitiononline.com/belgp08/petition.html

[Shaddock]

@ Shaddock - let's leave the later situations alone.

My point was that LH cut the corner to his own advantage. He put himseld just behind KR into a perfect position to counterattack and that was the reason why Alonso was made to let the car go by again (thus twice) and properly (back then in Suzuka).

Hang on,

Lewis was tucked up under Kimi's rear wing leading up to the bus stop, probably less that 1 or 2 tenths behind.

After he missed the corner he let Kimi passed and resumed the same postion behind Kimi's rear wing on the start-finish straight as he was going into the bus stop.

There was no advantage in missing the bus stop!

He was in an identical position before the bus stop and he was crossing the finishing line, tucked up under Kimi's rear wing.

[JamesW]

From The Rules.

16.2.a It shall be at the discretion of the stewards to decide, upon a report or a request by the race director, if a driver or drivers involved in an incident shall be penalised.

Emphasis mine. The race director, Charlie Whiting, saw no problem. So who submitted the report or request, and what was their authority to do so?

[modbaraban]

Hang on,

Lewis was tucked up under Kimi's rear wing leading up to the bus stop, probably less that 1 or 2 tenths behind.

After he missed the corner he let Kimi passed and resumed the same postion behind Kimi's rear wing on the start-finish straight as he was going into the bus stop.

There was no advantage in missing the bus stop!

He was in an identical position before the bus stop and he was crossing the finishing line, tucked up under Kimi's rear wing.

Not really. He would be far behind if he'd stayed on the track.

Lets roll back to 2005 Suzuka. Alonso was ordered to let Klien repass.
Why? He let him get a sniff on the straight then towed him down to T1. The fact is there has been another similar instance of this.

Thanks for rememberring that better than I did.

[axle]

From The Rules.

16.2.a It shall be at the discretion of the stewards to decide, upon a report or a request by the race director, if a driver or drivers involved in an incident shall be penalised.

Emphasis mine. The race director, Charlie Whiting, saw no problem. So who submitted the report or request, and what was their authority to do so?

Ferrari lodged the appeal with the stewards, after Kimi crashed out.

[centurion77]

Hamilton deserves the penalty. He wasn't trying to avoid an accident. He sticks the nose in a let me pass or we are both out of the race sort of way. And then, since KR makes a stand. Runs wide, goes off-roading & gains the position. Come on! LH knew he had done something naughty. I had never seen him so nervous in a press conference. His explanation was toooo long.

[Shaddock]

Hang on,

Lewis was tucked up under Kimi's rear wing leading up to the bus stop, probably less that 1 or 2 tenths behind.

After he missed the corner he let Kimi passed and resumed the same postion behind Kimi's rear wing on the start-finish straight as he was going into the bus stop.

There was no advantage in missing the bus stop!

He was in an identical position before the bus stop and he was crossing the finishing line, tucked up under Kimi's rear wing.

Not really. He would be far behind if he'd stayed on the track.

But he didn't stay on the track and so he allowed Kimi to re-pass him (twice )

[SZ]

Dude, from a neutral here (williams fan) i cant stand double standards, you quite clearly are also a fan boy. And the only reason KR didnt say anything is due to the fact he messed his own race up, hamilton didnt force him off the track, he spun twice himself. Infact KR forced ham off the track at the chicane.

I'm neither a Ferrari or McLaren fan. I've got no doubt whatsoever that LH would have passed KR and that KR had a high chance of spinning the car. LH made a marginal move that's illegal by the rules he and his team choose to race under. Period.

Read the rules. KR closing the door at the chicane's legal. If LH wants to get close enough to an obvious legal defensive move to need to back off big time when a racer takes an inevitable defensive line, that's his business. It's not as though in his entire racing career he'd never have had to defend his line, and he'd know what's coming.

KR was asked about his thoughts on the incident and he indicated the rules are clear and it's out of his control, and said nothing more.

IT is clear that ferrari is getting helped by the fia, but some fans still cant believe wile it is clear. It is 100% unfair and an racing accident, tell me what hamilton had to do else. He couldnt do anything else, or he would hit KR car. And you say let the racing do the talking, it was a racing accident but some fools start complaining because ferrari got owned and they didnt win. LH didnt break the rules and he did like he should. the rules state; "When you cut the track by accident and gained a position by that you should give back that position." excactly like lh did, the rules dont state that you arent allowed to get a tow from the car after he gave the pos back.

WHen you're done playing with formatting...

Again, the rules are clear - go look up the section of the regulations and sporting code that the penalty references. You can only use the track for racing. You cannot use an off-track excursion to get in tow, get closer to, align yourself for overtaking. It's strictly forbidden. LH would have known this. Ron would have known this (or Ron wouldn't have run off to Charlie Whiting for clarification). Which is also kind of silly, as it's also written in the rules (published well ahead of the season start so Ron and everyone else can read them) that unless it's completely clear that a driver causing incident is in breach of the rules, (from the regulations) "any incidents involving more than one car will normally be investigated after the race." So Ron would well know that asking CW amounts to squat. That if he wanted to avoid the investigation, he tells his driver to back off an avoid any ambiguity (don't know why he didn't, he'd have likely passed him regardless), or run the gauntlet and risk getting shafted. That's the call he made. JamesW and others towing this line - CW saying OK at the time means fck all. Ron surely has a copy of the 2008 regs printed somewhere.

For reference, an innocent 'racing incident' is Rosberg spinning and it's effect on the race. Anyone getting their day shat on through that can live with it.

Just to all those who agree with the decision I want to make it clear that I'm not necessarily disputing the decision to penalise Hamilton - I don't have any of the evidance to comment on that - it's the inconsistancy of the rules. 25 second penalty? I mean even if they had demoted him to second they could have said they were taking away the place he gained, but they've dropped him back two positions!? At the end of the day in the wrong or not the penalty is far far to strong.

Wrong again, read the rules.

"The stewards may impose any one of three penalties on any driver involved in an Incident :

a) A drive-through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re-join the race without stopping ;
b) A ten second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop at his pit for at least ten seconds
and then re-join the race.
c) a drop of ten grid positions at the driver’s next Event.

However, should either of the penalties under a) and b) above be imposed during the last five laps, or after the end of a race, Article 16.4b) below will not apply and 25 seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned."

Again, not unknown to McLaren. He illegally influenced the outcome of a race in worsening conditions and lost four points for his trouble against starting 11th next race. Given the above penalties are presented in order of severity, I'd argue he got off lightly. Though as the silver arrow's well suited to Monza, I don't doubt that if an appeal against the infringement doesn't hold, McLaren effectively ask for a harsher penalty and will push the 10 position drop.

[The FOZ]

Petition:

http://www.petitiononline.com/belgp08/petition.html

I can't sign that, because asking them to undertake some internal process that we know nothing about doesn't fix the problem of making decisions using some internal process that we knew nothing about.

The rules need to be cleaned up, made more clear, and the entire process wide open for public consumption.

What I think the petition should say is we request full disclosure and explanation of how and why this particular decision was made.

[myurr]

Petition:

http://www.petitiononline.com/belgp08/petition.html

I shall be promoting it in every way I can.

[JamesW]

Ferrari lodged the appeal with the stewards, after Kimi crashed out.

Ferrari have insisted that they did not lodge any official protest with the race stewards about the matter. Besides, Ferrari aren't the race director, who according to the rules, is the person who gets to submit requests to the stewards.

[nae]

another unbiased view

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20740.html

in responce to

'penatlies in order of severity'

looked quiet hard and cant see and 10K fine for the life of me

[i70q7m7ghw]

If this is the logic of the penalty KR needs to also be penalised 25 seconds somewhere for gaining an advantage using the grippy run off during the wet on the back straight to latch on to the back of hamilton's car. Fact is there were probably half a dozen of the same infringemants during the race, Hamilton is being made an example of - fine! but the penalty is still too harsh!

[Shaddock]

You can only use the track for racing. You cannot use an off-track excursion to get in tow, get closer to, align yourself for overtaking. It's strictly forbidden.

You must be watching a different race ? He didn't cut the corner the get in the tow or align for overtaking, but used it to gain a place. This place was then given back twice to Kimi.