2008 Japanese GP

[shotzski]

Double post. Sorry

[myurr]

Massa moves up to seventh place as Bourdais gets 25-sec penalty from their 1st corner tussle.

What a joke - yet another stupid stupid decision from the stewards. What the hell is Bourdais supposed to have done - he exits the pits, is racing Massa for position, and Massa just turns into him.

They really do expect every other car on the circuit to just leap out the way of the Ferrari's.

Massa was at full speed, and had his race line picked. Bourdais was exiting the pits, accelerating up to speed. Rejoining the pack from pits should = yield when needed.

Think about it in terms of the road. Bourdais was merging onto the freeway. He has to do it in a manner that allows the people on the freeway to continue without interruption.

That's right. I just applied rules of the road to Formula 1.

Would be great, except your utterly wrong about the positioning of the cars. Bourdais was ahead with Massa trying to overtake. Because he was at racing speed by the end of the straight he was able to pull alongside, with Bourdais taking the tightest line possible. Massa turned in on him, plain and simple. Don't forget they were racing for position at the time, and frankly Bourdais had every right to do more to block Massa.

This was a bigger travesty of injustice than even Spa, on the part of the stewards, although in my mind it had the same motivation. Benefit the red cars.

[myurr]

So get this.

Regarding the first turn of the race, and Lewis' move on Kimi:

-Lewis regrets his move, and admits it was incorrect.

Actually Lewis regrets his move as it was unnecessary and reckless - but he doesn't see why he had a penalty as he says he didn't touch any other car. If Heikki hadn't have also run too deep then Kimi would actually have been able to cut back inside and carry on, as he tried to do at the time.

-Heikke claimed it was a fair move, and there should not have been a penalty.

-Kimi says both Lewis and Heikke hit him. Safe to say he's in agreement with Lewis' penalty, and probably wanted the same for Heikke. No matter since he DNF'd anyhow.

Having watched the replay several times I cannot see any contact - Kimi had to turn steer to avoid them, but no contact.

When Lewis, the instigator, admits a mistake, it's crystal clear that he boned the turn, and deserved the penalty. Heikke is clearly out to lunch, first for thinking it was an OK move, and also for not mentioning anything about his alleged contact with Kimi.

In this case I'm not going to argue the penalty - it's not exactly consistent with other turn 1 wheel banging and the lack of penalties applied at all the other races, but I can at least see it was a pretty bone headed thing to do and so maybe the penalty is justified. At least Lewis is admitting his mistakes, something Massa seems utterly incapable of (even blaming Sutil for that pitlane incident in Valencia).

As for Massa/Hamilton on turn 10, Massa was on the inside. Lewis ran his line too deep, and Massa simply had nowhere to go. Look at Massa's direction of travel, he really didn't do much of anything...went off the track, straight line, back on, and into Lewis. Plus or Minus a fraction of a second would have resulted in either a major collision, or no collision, but since Massa had nowhere to go but off track, I'm calling foul on Lewis.

[/quote]
Again it looks like you are watching a different race.

It was Massa who ran too deep into the first part of the chicane, Lewis took the driving line through both corners. Massa ballsed it up, got out of shape, floored it, lept over the grass and curb and smashed into the side of Hamilton. And you're calling foul on Lewis!? WTF!?

Massa went off track all on his own and then failed to yield, instead choosing to fling his car in there in a desperate lunge taking out his title competitor.

From where I'm standing Massa got off extremely lightly there and is every bit as bone headed as Lewis was in the first corner, if not more so. If the roles were reversed you would have been calling for Lewis to be black flagged.

[oj1983]

I agree. Lewis made a mistake at the first corner and was punished - fair enough. Massa run wide at 10 and instead of yielding at 11 and then try to retake Hamilton elsewhere he cuts a bit at 11 and runs into Hamilton. It looks to me from the various camera angles that there is at least a metre between Massa and Hamilton at the apex of 11, which Massa could've moved into, but to do this he would've had to slow a little to get around the corner and yield. It looked a bit like the impulsive move Schumacher might have made early on in his Ferrari career!

I think Massa's move deserved a penalty just as much as Hamilton's. I don't think the authorities intentionally help Ferrari, but sometimes it does look a bit suspicious.

Owen

[timbo]

Would be great, except your utterly wrong about the positioning of the cars. Bourdais was ahead with Massa trying to overtake. Because he was at racing speed by the end of the straight he was able to pull alongside, with Bourdais taking the tightest line possible. Massa turned in on him, plain and simple. Don't forget they were racing for position at the time, and frankly Bourdais had every right to do more to block Massa.

That would be true, but Massa was AHEAD of Bourdais when they mada a contact. Sure Massa was desperate in his attemt to gain some points, but Bourdais knowing he was on cold tyres and that Massa needed to pit could back off and loose nothing.

[ben_watkins]

The first corner penalty imposed on Hamilton is totally ridiculous. Who has ever been punished before for forcing a car wide on a corner? I don't recall it. Know why, cause it's called "racing". Something the FIAsco don't want us to see anymore!


Also it is quite clearly dangerous for someone to cross the boundary line of the pit straight, going off circuit, across warning hatchings painted on the road in a bid to overtake someone. This is what Massa did and the stewards turned a blind eye! If someone had been coming out the pits at that point, with a closing speed of 300kph, there would have been one all mighty mother of all crashes. Not an accident, cause Massa deliberately left the normal racing circuit to gain an advantage. This MUST be stopped for the safety of everyone!!

Yet again the FIAsco has proven themselves to not be a credible governing body, turning the so called sport into a laughing stock. I think it's time we saw the teams make a break away formula and get back to racing, with clear rules, evenly and fairly enforced!

So far all that has happened, last year and this, has turned a once noble & gentlemanly car racing sport into a shambles of very fast advertising billboards running round a track every two weeks.

[myurr]

That would be true, but Massa was AHEAD of Bourdais when they mada a contact. Sure Massa was desperate in his attemt to gain some points, but Bourdais knowing he was on cold tyres and that Massa needed to pit could back off and loose nothing.

He was ahead like Hamilton was ahead of Kimi in Spa, in fact probably even less so, and in Spa I believe the decision went the other way.

[Ray]

You're all whiners. Just enjoy the racing. Jesus.

[jon-mullen]

That was some good racing. Goes to show how the drivers handle having something to lose. Some of them play it safe, some of them double down. Bravo 'nando for keeping his nose out of the Turn 1 debacle and driving like a champion.

[timbo]

He was ahead like Hamilton was ahead of Kimi in Spa, in fact probably even less so, and in Spa I believe the decision went the other way.

OMG... How can you compare this? If Raikkonen collided that would be whole other story!

Oh, Ray said wise words. Next two races gonna be great.

[jeff8407]

I just have to say I think Bourdais got the shaft. The race stewards, and their silly post race manipulation, make me not want to watch!

[myurr]

He was ahead like Hamilton was ahead of Kimi in Spa, in fact probably even less so, and in Spa I believe the decision went the other way.

OMG... How can you compare this? If Raikkonen collided that would be whole other story!

Oh, Ray said wise words. Next two races gonna be great.

It's pretty easy to compare - in both situations one driver was slightly ahead and on the outside. In both instances it was a much faster car trying to overtake for position.

In Spa Kimi pushed Hamilton to the edge of the circuit, made slight contact and Hamilton took to the escape road. He was penalised.

In Fuji Bourdais held the inside line and Massa turned in on him. In this instance it was Bourdais that was penalised. It should also be noted that he was well outside the pit lane exit and had rejoined the circuit - he was racing, not rejoining at that point.

It's inconsistent. Should Hamilton have turned in on Kimi in Spa, probably causing Kimi to push him into a spin?

I seem to remember an awful lot of Ferrari fan boys saying that in Spa Hamilton should have just braked slightly more and ducked round the other side of Kimi - so surely Massa should have done the same here.

The only consistency in both these penalties is that it has been the driver with nowhere to go that was penalised.

[mx_tifoso]

If people don't like what happens and don't want to continue watching... then don't! No forces you to continue to do so, but if you are going to continue watching at least do your best to enjoy as watching Formula One is a privelege not a right. And many other people would gladly take over your place as a loyal enthusiast in front of the teli or computer. Pessimism doesn't contribute anything good to the situation what so ever.

Besides, the stewards know what they're doing, and some day one of them might just be a team principal, as Stefano Domenicali has managed to do.

[sknguy]

I have a question: Why has the Renault become so fast? They were complaining of being under-powered but they were at times the fastest car on track.

Alonso had a lot to contribute to the Renault team, technically. He's a good communicator, a good driver, and good for car development. Not only are good race-day drivers important on race day, but good test and race-day drivers are all key to car development.

These are things that younger drivers need to learn. Vettel, for such a young driver, seems pretty adept at contributing. So, although they may have been able to do some work on the motor, I'm pretty sure that their speed is coming from chassis and aero development.

[ESPImperium]

I have a question: Why has the Renault become so fast? They were complaining of being under-powered but they were at times the fastest car on track.

Alonso had a lot to contribute to the Renault team, technically. He's a good communicator, a good driver, and good for car development. Not only are good race-day drivers important on race day, but good test and race-day drivers are all key to car development.

These are things that younger drivers need to learn. Vettel, for such a young driver, seems pretty adept at contributing. So, although they may have been able to do some work on the motor, I'm pretty sure that their speed is coming from chassis and aero development.

Well, Renaults new supercomputer did come on line at the start of September i think.

I think the renault Chassis is arguably the best in F1 at the moment. Its technally sound, isnt too hard or easy on its tyres, and uses best usage of the aero package it has bestowed on it without any ugly appendages like Antlers or Viking horns. The only weak link is that Renault Engine.

However, im gonna ask one question; Does Lewis hamilton not see or know when to use the percentage game in F1??? He just goes out and wants to race the heck out of the thing, taking the best out of the tyres (Turkey 07/08 and China 07) and then when he sences things a changing, he makes rash decisions (Canada 08 and Monza Quali 2 08) in the heat of the moment.

if he is gonna win a championship, let alone this one, he should learn its ok to finish 2nd all the time in stead of 1st 66% to 75% of the time as it will earn you more points.

Thats my obesrvations of him.

All the other drivers seem to be able to make that call.

But i have just realised that thats Ferarri and Mclaren now on massivly long loosing streaks, Ferarri (excluding their engine in the STR3 of Vettel) on a 3 race loosing streak and Mclaren on a 6 race one.

The only man on the grid with a 100% finish rate this year is Nick Heidfeld of BMW Sauber, albeit in Monaco he was 4 laps down on the Leader at the finish. and the BMW car is the only car to have scored points at all the races in 2008 as well.

A couple of questions id like to ask;

Who has played their joker engines for the year, in terms of the champoinship leaders, Hamilton/Massa/Kubica and their team mates as well, as they can be instrumental in the rest of the season i think.