Red Bull's qualifying advantage

[hardingfv32]

Why does Red Bull have better performance in qualifying than the rest of the competition, yet equal performance during the races? To reduce some forms of disagreement let's assume the above statement is factually true and we remove the quality of the drivers from the discussion.

So what can be done to improve qualifying at the possible expense of race performance?

I wonder about the qualifying weight distribution and Red Bulls aggressive use of the DRS during qualifying. There is also the issue of the KERS battery placement that is obviously problematic. RB might be new to KERS but the battery suppliers know how to treat the batteries and would have informed the team. They have put their batteries in a bad thermo location for a reason. Could it be weight distribution?

How does the qual vs race fuel load effect weight distribution? The rules seem to imply that weight distribution is not controlled during the race.

"For 2011 only, the weight applied on the front and rear wheels must not be less than 291kg and 342kg respectively at all times during the For 2011 only, the weight applied on the front and rear wheels must not be less than 291kg and 342kg respectively at all times during the qualifying practice session."

What is meant exactly by "qualifying practice session"?

Brian

[amouzouris]

http://www.thef1times.com/community/display/00240 this is a possible scenario for RBR qualy pace..

[hardingfv32]

Why would RB/Renault have an advantage with off-throttle exhaust gas generation, particularly over a short time period where durability would be a smaller issue?

This whole area of engine thermodynamics is very well modeled and implications of off-throttle exhaust gas generation on the engine would be easy to see. Then you have dyno testing that can accurately verify your assumptions. All this is available to most teams and this type of testing not controlled by the rules. At best you could have an advantage for 2-3 weeks when this was first introduced.

Can we remove "off-throttle exhaust gas generation" from this thread to narrow the possibilities?

Brian

[alelanza]

Million dollar question right, most likely several factors influence this. Personally i don't see weight dist playing a part here, whatever effect fuel had in qualy would have allowed Vettel to go back to being 1 sec a lap quicker than Hamilton towards the end of the race, and that was not the case, if anything the Macca was quicker. Batteries don't significantly change their mass amount or location from qualy to race, so i don't see that one making sense either.

Regarding off-throttle EBD, if i'm not mistaken during the qualy only the Red Bulls used their DRS before and throughout all of turn 16th, also i think they were the only ones hitting KERS in that same part of the track, even Lewis waited quite a bit before blasting KERS. So whatever advantage they have on off throttle EBD, they also have it at WOT.

I believe there's solid weight on the DRS usage theory, while i don't know if we have data supporting the fact that the system in itself is more efficient, it's quite clear that DRS compounds the effects of their aerodynamically more efficient car. Not only is their aero more efficient, but also DRS allows them to make it even more efficient for more meters in each corner than other teams (again turn 16th example). So i guess, if to this you add their better understanding/usage of the EBD, whether on or off throttle, plus better tyre usage, you may get to that second. I would assume their better understanding of the various car dyamics generates a compound effect in that they have more control in being able to switch the tyres on during qualy.

The other thing to consider is temps, i have the impression that the RBs have struggled more in warmer conditions (or the Macca has fared better?), but i really don't feel like sitting down to compare race/qualy temperatures for each event.

[hardingfv32]

Let us assume that it is accurate to state that RB's pace (with low fuel) is not the same at the end of the race as during qualifying. Shall we also assume that the DRS usage is completely different during the two activities.

It is my thought that there is something else helping the car's balance/performance during qualifying and race that compensates for this variation in DRS usage. Everyone has the same options with their DRS during qualifying, yet RB application is different?

If your the answer is RB has more grip, then that is going to make for a very uncreative thread.

Brian

[Just_a_fan]

Can we remove "off-throttle exhaust gas generation" from this thread to narrow the possibilities?

Brian

But if that is the reason they are quicker, why remove it from the thread? It's a bit like asking "why do apples fall to the ground?" and then saying "ignore gravity as an answer".

If the RB7, as seems likely, has been optimised to benefit most from the EBD and the engine map is designed to give maximum EBD for one lap, then that allows them to run with the DRS opened more often. This gives less drag but without too big a loss of downforce because the EBD is compensating to a large degree for the downforce lost from the wing.

Applying Occam's razor suggests that this is the reason for their relative qualifying / race paces.

[hardingfv32]

This could very well be the correct compromise. Again it would seem odd the other teams would modelled for these setting with the track/lap simulations and have seen the possibilities. Looking at the results from say the last race, one could say the configurations used by RB and Mclaren have almost the same outcomes when veiwing the weekend in total. Do too few teams have effective blown diffusers to attempt RB's configuration?

Brian

[hardingfv32]

When discussing the weight distribution rule, what is meant exactly by "qualifying practice session"?

Brian

[Byronrhys]

The fixed Weight Distribution rule confuses me a little, is it when the car is not holding ballast?

[alelanza]

When discussing the weight distribution rule, what is meant exactly by "qualifying practice session"?

Brian

No idea, but once into qualy it's parc ferme so i don't think they can change ballast, meaning that rule affects the race as well

The fixed Weight Distribution rule confuses me a little, is it when the car is not holding ballast?

It means what it means, depends on your car whether you need ballast or not to comply with it, but those two together make 633kg, meaning you can play around with the other 7 kg and put them wherever you want within the axles, or if you go outside the axles then you may need to remeasure to see if you still comply or not.

[hardingfv32]

Then this is my theory on the subject. I am trying to tie together the DRS, weight distribution, and RB's KERS battery location.

For qualifying RB runs with the DRS activate much of the lap. The car meets the weight distribution rule in qualifying trim. Maybe to exaggerate this setup, the fuel cell is multi chamber and fuel is stored only in the front portion of the cell for qualifying.

For the race they need to move weight rearward to make best use of the down force provide by the close DRS system. Maybe the fuel cell is farther rearward because there are no KERS batteries in that location. Remember the weight distribution rule does not apply at this time. This balance of this setup does degrade as the race proceeds. RB has not had the strongest end of race performance on balance.

Brian

[alelanza]

I don't think i completely follow you here, but i appreciate the ideas ping pong so i'll mention a few more things. DRS is deployed at a point in time where there's relatively speaking no hard cornering, so in my view it's ok for the aero balance to be off during DRS deployment. I think weight dist applies at all times, at least in the way it's written into the rules, not sure if you mean to say it doesn't apply in the sense that fuel can throw it off. But regarding fuel placement, i think there's a rule somewhere that states that a majority of the fuel must be located between the driver seat and the engine, can't remember the % but you may want to look it up.

[hardingfv32]

1) Although the quality of the turns could be questioned, it is clear that RB has their DRS activated through many more turns than all the other competitors during qualifying. I could be overstating the importance of this point, but it is a key requirement for my theory.

2) The rules state the weight distribution requirements only apply during "qualifying practice session". That is a direct quote. Although a strange statement, at a minimum there is no mention of the "race".

3) I would say that I am saying that you can start the race with any weight distribution you wish. Since adding fuel is the only weigh to add weight after qualifying, this becomes my focus.

4) Yes, the fuel must be between the driver and engine but there are some variable such as wheel base and the space available which might be helped by the unusual location of the KERS battery.

Yes, ping pong....

Brian

[Rob01]

What Red Bull do is retard the ignition and maintain some throttle and fuel to allow combustion to continue to take place. However the ignition of the air and fuel mixture now takes place later in the engines revolution, when the exhaust valve has already opened. Rather than driving the piston down, the explosion of the mixture goes into the exhaust, still expanding as it does so. This creates a rush of gas through the exhaust mimicking the effect of running with the throttle open. Thus the diffuser still sees a flow of gas and maintains downforce despite the engine slowing down

Of course this gain doesn’t come for free, the heat of combustion now takes place in the exhaust port, so that the exhaust valve, cylinder head and exhaust pipe all suffer excessive heat. This will affect them, as they cannot withstand this sort of thermal load for long periods. Equally the process burns additional fuel, in the race this is a negative thing as fuel is limited and no refuelling is allowed.
This ignition retard mapping would be controlled via the ECU via the driver selecting a steering wheel control, using quite normal tuning parameters and not some clever workaround.

[hardingfv32]

Would it not be logical to expect the other teams to be doing the same by now? Sound very easy, certainly much easier than building a flexing wing!

Brian