Nissan Motors car could double as house generator

[celinaB]

Nissan is scheming to make its eco-friendly Leaf car into a substitute energy source for houses in times of emergency. The Japanese auto manufacturer is developing the technology as it simultaneously tries to gear back up to full manufacturing after the country was ruined by severe disasters in March.



Vehicle runs only on electricity



The Leaf started to sell last year. It was in December that it happened. Battery power is the only thing utilized to make the vehicle run making it fully electric. Most automobiles labeled as eco-friendly, like the Chevrolet Volt, are hybrids. A gas-powered generator is used to back up batteries. A high-performance, 24kwh lithium-ion battery could be found in the Leaf. If you would like one, you'll have to pay about $37,000 or 2.98 yen.



A Leaf rather than a generator



Carlos Ghosn is the Nissan Motors president that claims Leaf EVs (Electronic Vehicles) will have new engineering put in them. They'll be able to put energy into private houses. Showrooms with new automobiles should take place fairly soon. The company hopes to have these out in the near future.



Japan's tsunami and earthquake destruction got many interested in the car. Individuals want something like this for emergencies. The zero-emissions vehicles head in Nissan Motors is Hideaki Watanabe. He said, "Some individuals are saying that rather than installing a generator, they would just buy a Leaf." Household storage batteries with capacity comparable to that of the Leaf currently sell for about 2 million yen, about $25,000 United States, in Japan.



The average home can run for 24 hours in the U.S. with 24 kilowatt hours, which the Leaf can supposedly store. In times of crisis -- power outages for example -- the automobile could be used to charge the next day's power overnight.



Not able to get charge units here



Without additional hardware, Nissan hopes to industry home-powering automobiles. Nissan's quick-charge unit can, in just 30 minutes, restore 80 percent of power which Watanabe thinks can be a way to connect it to the home. Charging the car could take 20 hours for a normal outlet. It costs about $15,000 to purchase the quick charger which is only accessible in Japan currently. Hopefully, that cost could be dropped to $10,000, Watanabe states.



Plant opening pushed back



About 7,600 Leafs have been sold to date, and about 2,000 of those went to United States automobile owners. The plan to open a manufacturing plant in Smyrna, Tenn., was postponed with the Japan disasters that also slowed manufacturing. It can be late next year before the opening takes place. "Because of the earthquake, it's putting us in a difficult situation," states Watanabe. "But we're not giving up yet," he explained.>



Articles cited



Auto News

autonews247.com/nissans-home-city-seeks-to-power-homes-from-electric-cars/



Business Link Japan

steve-crane.blogspot.com/2011/06/jun-7th-nissan-future-houses-could-be.html



Detroit Free Press

freep.com/article/20110613/BUSINESS01/110613072/Nissan-plans-help-earthquake-struck-Leaf-owners-use-cars-power-homes?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Auto news

[autogyro]

This is marketing hype. BS

Building a fuel fed 'generator' into an EV, is simply converting it back into a hybrid. Why use two energy producing systems on a moving vehicle, it justs increases the weight and complexity.
Using it to supply energy for home use is passing the buck away from the government legislated systems in place to supply energy needs for the countries
infra structures. (it also supports profits from car makers)
It is a knee jerk reaction, as a result of the stupidity in placing nuclear power plants on top of seismic fault lines, to satisfy the needs of Japanese and American greed and then not being able to deal with the inevitable results.

Smart electricity grids are the technology to increase electric distribution efficiency for industry, home use and EVs.
What energy is used centraly to feed these grids becomes more efficient in production what ever it is, due to balancing the smart grid in and out to level the peaks in demand (using EV battery storage) and also because the energy can be a result of a balance between large centralised 'efficient' production and government incentified business and local input from energy schemes based on alternates.
Change the transport base to EVs and there would be no need for the liquid fuel distribution infra structure. This will halve CO2 output from vehicles use and reduce energy demands over all by a huge amount.

If the Japanese government has the guts and the clout, to fight off the greed system that will continue to undermine this concept, it could use a national emergency policy to establish the concept without nuclear and using a majority of alternate energy inside a decade IMHO.

Japan could lead the world on this and set an example for everywhere else.
Make fossil fuel use illegal for vehicles inside five years Japan.

[Pierce89]

This is marketing hype. BS

Building a fuel fed 'generator' into an EV, is simply converting it back into a hybrid. Why use two energy producing systems on a moving vehicle, it justs increases the weight and complexity.
Using it to supply energy for home use is passing the buck away from the government legislated systems in place to supply energy needs for the countries
infra structures. (it also supports profits from car makers)
It is a knee jerk reaction, as a result of the stupidity in placing nuclear power plants on top of seismic fault lines, to satisfy the needs of Japanese and American greed and then not being able to deal with the inevitable results.

Smart electricity grids are the technology to increase electric distribution efficiency for industry, home use and EVs.
What energy is used centraly to feed these grids becomes more efficient in production what ever it is, due to balancing the smart grid in and out to level the peaks in demand (using EV battery storage) and also because the energy can be a result of a balance between large centralised 'efficient' production and government incentified business and local input from energy schemes based on alternates.
Change the transport base to EVs and there would be no need for the liquid fuel distribution infra structure. This will halve CO2 output from vehicles use and reduce energy demands over all by a huge amount.

If the Japanese government has the guts and the clout, to fight off the greed system that will continue to undermine this concept, it could use a national emergency policy to establish the concept without nuclear and using a majority of alternate energy inside a decade IMHO.

Japan could lead the world on this and set an example for everywhere else.
Make fossil fuel use illegal for vehicles inside five years Japan.

Make fossil fuels illegal? You don't realize they are the most efficient fuel currently widely available? The energy content in gas or diesel dwarf anything readily available. The future is increasing the effiency and lowering emissions for oil burning engines. Not simply eliminating the best thing we currently have. EV's get their energy from fossil fuels also. Until hydrogen fuel cells become more widely available, fossil fuels are the best most efficient thing we've got.

[autogyro]

Fossil fuels are better used in centralised energy production centers where the
use of them can be most efficient, it is very very wasteful to use them in vehicles where it 'definitely' should be made illegal. (in Japan for a start)

Electricity is not an energy source so can in no way be directly compared with
having to carry on a vehicle toxic liquid fuel that can cause cancer.

Hydrogen will never be a vehicle fuel. The distribution network can never be made safe enough or cost effective. Hydrogen in fuel cells or to burn in an ic engine is a red herring put about by the oil companies. The technology looks great technicaly because it has been fully developed for use in space by NASA. They conveniently omit to explain how they get pressurised very low temperature hydrogen to the fuel outlets. Try it some time.

By changing to EVs it will it is true eliminate liquid fuel use, it will also eliminate the huge liquid fuel distribution infra structure. This will save huge amounts of energy and also reduce CO2 output from vehicle use by 50 percent.
It will happen, it is only when not if.

Japan needs to do it now, if it is to have any chance of returning to its pre nuclear disaster economic position.

[Pierce89]

Fossil fuels are better used in centralised energy production centers where the
use of them can be most efficient, it is very very wasteful to use them in vehicles where it 'definitely' should be made illegal. (in Japan for a start)

Electricity is not an energy source so can in no way be directly compared with
having to carry on a vehicle toxic liquid fuel that can cause cancer.

Hydrogen will never be a vehicle fuel. The distribution network can never be made safe enough or cost effective. Hydrogen in fuel cells or to burn in an ic engine is a red herring put about by the oil companies. The technology looks great technicaly because it has been fully developed for use in space by NASA. They conveniently omit to explain how they get pressurised very low temperature hydrogen to the fuel outlets. Try it some time.

By changing to EVs it will it is true eliminate liquid fuel use, it will also eliminate the huge liquid fuel distribution infra structure. This will save huge amounts of energy and also reduce CO2 output from vehicle use by 50 percent.
It will happen, it is only when not if.

Japan needs to do it now, if it is to have any chance of returning to its pre nuclear disaster economic position.

That's one thing, but the the the first time I read incorrectly and I thought you meant eliminating fossil fuels even for electricity production. Regardless, I think the best hybrids, which will start going parallel instead of serial, to allow engines optimized for the generation of electricity, will still dominate over pure EVs simply out of people's reluctance to change. Gasoline or diesel can be bought whenever needed, if your transportation energy mixed with your home energy consumption all comes in one monthly bill, it will be quite a shock to many people.

[autogyro]

Hybrids will be a stop gap for a while, I have a new generation design for one.

However, the future will be pure electric.
There is little point in carrying two energy sources and the motors/engine to make use of them in one vehicle.

If you have a problem with energy costs, start producing your own and become part of the future. There are many ways to do so and to 'profit' from it.
Fight the new blood sucking 'grant hoover' companies and help set up community,
commercial and personal groups to capitalise on this new money maker.
Learn how to counter the NIMBYs who are preventing the future for your children.

[aterren]

By changing to EVs it will it is true eliminate liquid fuel use, it will also eliminate the huge liquid fuel distribution infra structure. This will save huge amounts of energy and also reduce CO2 output from vehicle use by 50 percent.

Japan needs to do it now, if it is to have any chance of returning to its pre nuclear disaster economic position.

Japan has a massive problem right now providing basic electricity needs in major cities. How much more demand would converting all all cars to electric place on the system and what knock on effect would that have regarding infrastructure, power plant production, and so on?

Could you an cite some articles that have addressed the economics and logistics of this conversion? I'd really like to read them.

[jon-mullen]

I've read the OP article four or five times now and it still doesn't make sense to me.

First of all, it doesn't mention generating anything, it says the Leaf would power your house, presumably using up the energy stored in its batteries. And then what? 24 kWh? If you really need electricity that badly (medical reasons, etc.) then you've probably already got some kind of back-up. If it's kind of critical (i.e. electric heat), then you're going to use it up in a hurry. If (like my house) you've got gas heat, then your plumbing and gas would really be the main concern in an emergency.

Hydrogen will never be a vehicle fuel. The distribution network can never be made safe enough or cost effective. Hydrogen in fuel cells or to burn in an ic engine is a red herring put about by the oil companies. The technology looks great technicaly because it has been fully developed for use in space by NASA. They conveniently omit to explain how they get pressurised very low temperature hydrogen to the fuel outlets. Try it some time.

The most efficient method for making hydrogen right now is steam-reforming natural gas (mostly methane), which can be done on-site at a fueling station, eliminating the need for transporting large amounts of hydrogen. Some heavy vehicle designs (in use right now) instead use liquid methanol for fuel and reform it on-board. It doesn't do a lot for reducing emissions, but the increased efficiencies of the fuel cell and using an EV traction motor does make it more efficient than diesel.

Also, vehicle fuel cells use gaseous hydrogen, not the liquid hydrogen that fuels spacecraft.

Smart electricity grids are the technology to increase electric distribution efficiency for industry, home use and EVs.
What energy is used centraly to feed these grids becomes more efficient in production what ever it is, due to balancing the smart grid in and out to level the peaks in demand (using EV battery storage) and also because the energy can be a result of a balance between large centralised 'efficient' production and government incentified business and local input from energy schemes based on alternates.

This is spot-on, no argument.


The future (imho) is making solid and liquid fuels from sources that remove carbon from the atmosphere and are therefore carbon-neutral. The biggest gain from EVs (hybrid or battery) is decoupling the drivetrain from where the fuel is consumed because in the real world (sadly) not all driving is done continuously at highway speeds. The fact that the Volt gets 37 mpg in charge-sustaining mode despite carrying an ICE, battery system and electric traction motor is proof.

[autogyro]

The most efficient method for making hydrogen right now is steam-reforming natural gas (mostly methane), which can be done on-site at a fueling station, eliminating the need for transporting large amounts of hydrogen. Some heavy vehicle designs (in use right now) instead use liquid methanol for fuel and reform it on-board. It doesn't do a lot for reducing emissions, but the increased efficiencies of the fuel cell and using an EV traction motor does make it more efficient than diesel.

Also, vehicle fuel cells use gaseous hydrogen, not the liquid hydrogen that fuels spacecraft.

Why bother, use the natural gas in large electricity generating stations in the first place.
Same with methanol(and ethanol) both of which have a developing technology in fuel cell use just like hydrogen.
Transporting 'any' liquid fuel for vehicle use is pointless.
It is always more efficient potentialy to use liquid fuels at large static electricity generating plants, even using fuel cells.

Do you know of any safe and practical way of carrying 'gaseous' hydrogen in a rosd vehicle?

[jon-mullen]

Well, it depends what your safety concerns are. In a lot of heavy vehicle designs the hydrogen tank is mounted on the roof, so a leak into the vehicle is impossible because of hydrogen's buoyancy.



I haven't much looked at the Honda FCX Clarity, but it appears they've isolated the tank from the cabin as well.



A lot of work is going into hydrogen leak sensors and other safety features. To be fair, though, I haven't seen anything about safety in the event of an impact.

Although I agree in principle that there are inefficiencies in transporting all that fuel around the globe just to put it into a vehicle, you can't beat it for refueling time. I think we're all on the same page that hydrogen, like batteries or capacitors, is just an energy storage medium. The difference is that if there were hydrogen stations all over the place, I could drive a fuel cell car from here to, say... Austin ( ) and back and it would be practically the same experience as a trip in my current gasoline-burning ride. You can't say that about the Nissan Leaf, it would take what? a week? to do that.

Interesting side note, MIT students have developed a liquid fuel that can be used with a fuel cell AND refueled quickly.

[autogyro]

I am well aware of the problems needing to be overcome with pressurized gas storage on vehicles.
I was provisionaly awarded a grant for £4 million for the development of a tip
jet driven VTOL conversion for a light autogyro/convertiplane, using LPG for
both the ic thrust engine and the tip jets when needed.
The storage was in carbon fiber fuel tanks.
We converted a Piper Cherokee with carbon fiber wing tanks.
Unfortunetely we could not progress in the UK because of the cost of establishing the basic regulations which the CAA estimated at well over £4 million just to fill their coffers. Probably also to offset the back handers to the American aviation rotor winged companies that we cow toe to.
We convinced a number of top companies in the technical sense in the project.
One was the creation of a cheap aircraft capable of filling many of the currently barely covered roles in the middle east including dealing with unexploded bombs.
Unfortunetely, the CAA killed it stone dead.
How many lives did that cost?

Sorry back on track
Liquid hydrogen may well be used by a few well controlled public transport systems. For this it makes some sense in the short to medium term.
It will never be safe or cost effective enough for general private vehicle use.
In anycase, it is a liquid fuel, electricity is simply a very convenient way to transfer energy from one place to another, without the huge burden of transporting a heavy dangerous fuel under pressure and at low temperature.
Liquid fuel of any type demands a distribution network nearly as energy reliant as the actual use of the fuel in the vehicle park. Totaly pointless.
The future will be electric, not if, when.

[autogyro]

Although I agree in principle that there are inefficiencies in transporting all that fuel around the globe just to put it into a vehicle, you can't beat it for refueling time. I think we're all on the same page that hydrogen, like batteries or capacitors, is just an energy storage medium. The difference is that if there were hydrogen stations all over the place, I could drive a fuel cell car from here to, say... Austin ( ) and back and it would be practically the same experience as a trip in my current gasoline-burning ride. You can't say that about the Nissan Leaf, it would take what? a week? to do that.

Electricity is not an energy source.
EV technology is mature enough today to replace current vehicle motive power.
It has been used to drive trains for many years.
Technology on batteries and capacitors is developing at a rapid rate (electric traction is an area of revolution nothing less, a pity 'motor heads' close their minds like lemmings at every turn).
If the electricity grids were invested in to provide the capacity and the 'smart' operation and sections of main road carriageways were converted for induction charging for vehicles to use on the move, no problems with EV range would exist.

[Giblet]

Auto, I am curious as to what you think of this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 95719.html

and this:

http://www.popsci.com/technology/articl ... lectricity

The second link has a thread dedicated.

[autogyro]

Auto, I am curious as to what you think of this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 95719.html

and this:

http://www.popsci.com/technology/articl ... lectricity

The second link has a thread dedicated.

Both interesting technology Giblet.
I saw something similar to the first in the early 1980s and the second comes from
ideas going back two centuries.
Who knows how they will develop.

The point is that electric vehicles are possible today with todays available technology.
It is the change over from fossil fuels that is the on going problem.
This problem is mainly the established 'mind set'.

[flynfrog]

Although I agree in principle that there are inefficiencies in transporting all that fuel around the globe just to put it into a vehicle, you can't beat it for refueling time. I think we're all on the same page that hydrogen, like batteries or capacitors, is just an energy storage medium. The difference is that if there were hydrogen stations all over the place, I could drive a fuel cell car from here to, say... Austin ( ) and back and it would be practically the same experience as a trip in my current gasoline-burning ride. You can't say that about the Nissan Leaf, it would take what? a week? to do that.

Electricity is not an energy source.
EV technology is mature enough today to replace current vehicle motive power.
It has been used to drive trains for many years.
Technology on batteries and capacitors is developing at a rapid rate (electric traction is an area of revolution nothing less, a pity 'motor heads' close their minds like lemmings at every turn).
If the electricity grids were invested in to provide the capacity and the 'smart' operation and sections of main road carriageways were converted for induction charging for vehicles to use on the move, no problems with EV range would exist.

and who do you think should pay for all of this? If EVs were so ready for the mainstream why do they cost so much to build and sell? Just because something is possible doesn't mean its a great idea. You also have to deal with a whole new set of pollution problems when dealing with batteries. Not to mention all of the coal fired pollution. I am sure you will come up with some reply about oil barons keeping the price high ect.