Dan Wheldon Indycar accident - retrospective discussion

[Mystery Steve]

I've decided to start a new thread related to Dan Wheldon's fatal Indycar accident so that the memorial thread can be used to pay respect without being cluttered with debate. Out of respect for Dan, I'd ask that any discussion taking place in that thread be moved here.

I hate to say this in retrospect, but the warning signs were there and it was only a matter of time before those catch fences became deadly. Indycar has had several occasions where cars have become airborne and flown into the fences, but the impacts have usually caught the front or rear wing and just spun the car around. The drivers often had injuries but they were able to recover. The difference this time is Dan's car went into the fence cockpit first.

A polycarbonate screen in between the fence posts would certainly help absorb some of the impact while still inhibiting the car from protruding between the posts, but in my opinion, the real focus should be trying to keep the cars from becoming airborne in the first place. As much as we like to bemoan the asthetics of next year's car, the fenders surrounding the rear wheels will go a long way to alleviate the problem. Devices such as airbrakes would certainly help, and wouldn't be difficult to implement. Although, I'd be curious to see what the wind tunnel forces on the current Dallara look like when the car is backwards because I don't remember CART/ChampCar having a problem with cars becoming airborne, or at least not nearly as frequently. I wonder what the fundamental difference is between the two setups.

A major challenge with Indycar being a spec series is much of the safety improvement will rest on Indycar management, and costs need to understandably be controlled. I just hope the drivers will speak publicly about the need for improved safety measures and hold management's (and track and race organizers) feet to the fire.

[Carlos]

Words of condolence, appreciation and kindness from the drivers, team owners and corporates of INDYcar; from Peter M. De Lorenzo's Autoextremist tribute:

http://www.autoextremist.com/fumes1/

"Dan was more than a competitor to me – he was friend and an inspiration to me as a race car driver. Before we competed together in IndyCar we raced together as teammates at the 24 Hours of Daytona and he had so much positive energy and he was very kind and supportive to me and my racing career. It was easy for anyone who met him or raced with him to see how truly gifted he was. Racing has lost a great man and and a great race car driver - it will be a loss felt for many, many years to come. My heart and prayers go to his family."

Milka Duno

[HebertDC5]

This tragic loss has definetaly caused people to re-evaluate safety on ovals. Next year's car will make a difference, but to me, staying off banked ovals like Texas is a good idea. We cannot stay off ovals all together because of the heritage of Indianapolis but the tracks they race on should have little to no banking. The biggest improvement for next year is the rear wheels being covered . That will prevent cards getting airborne. But with that being said, are we losing the concept of open wheel racing? Just my 2 cents .


RIP Dan Wheldon

[flynfrog]

I don't think the ovals are the problem. yes the cars are closer together but it is a much easier to control space compared to a race track. Would a solution as simple as what sprint cars use be the answer two bars to keep thing from getting into the head area of the driver. you could even put a wind screen on it to keep a massa indecent from happening.

and you could let them mount another wing to it if you want.

[Tim.Wright]

I have read a bit about the new indycar with regards to its rear anti interlocking structure. I was skeptical at first, because it looked from the outside to be just some bodywork over the wheels which obviously wont help at all. But further reading suggests that it is a strong beam which should be able to take a fair load. The front wheels too claim to be covered by the front wing, but it looks to flimsy to operate as advertised. So they seem to have at least half addressed the interlocking wheels problem.

The driver protection problem seems an easy one to fix without a massive change to the cars. Extend the air intake forward to the level of the drivers helmet. What I have done here is something quick in mspaint - obviously there are other details to think of. Driver egress could be slightly impeded but it could be designed to minimise this impact.

[bhall]

I would not want to have to get out of that ^ quickly if it was on fire.

[Tim.Wright]

was going to say something about that because I knew someone would comment on it.

It really wont be that difficult, tilt your head forward a bit, the same way you do when you get out of a road car so you don't hit your head. Plus, with some extra design work (i.e. more than my 5min attempt in mspaint) you could make the central section curved so it guides the helmet forward as you exit instead of being a horizontal cieling. Normal egress is a non issue.

Where there could be an issue is in the case where the seat + driver need to be extracted together in an emergency. Though, again, with some extra design work this could be solved.

Also, I meant to mention before; Because the air intake has such a large cross section already, if you made it completely structural it would be immensely strong. Even operating as a cantilevered beam

Tim

[Mystery Steve]

Where there could be an issue is in the case where the seat + driver need to be extracted together in an emergency. Though, again, with some extra design work this could be solved.

You've got me thinking about the "helmet encapsulation" concept, and my idea might be too late to implement for the upcoming Dallara chassis for logistics and manufacturing reasons, so I'm speaking somewhat conceptually here. But what if the forward part of the intake as you've drawn it was structurally part of the seat assembly itself? In that case, if a driver needs to be extricated due to injuries, they could remove the whole assembly (seat and roll structure) and then safely remove the driver from the seat. You'd also have the benefit of being able to direct the load paths around the driver and into the chassis floor, instead of relying on a cantilevered structure.

Essentially, it would require a shift in perspective during the initial design phase from "OK, we have a car designed, so how do we protect the driver now?" to "OK, we have the driver sufficiently protected, now let's build the car around that." As long as the cockpit opening extends far enough forward, I don't see why an extended intake roll structure would be unreasonably difficult for the driver to get out. After all, top fuel dragsters and funny cars use roll cages that are a similar design. They just use steel tubing as opposed to carbon fiber.

[CHT]

Could the Red Bull X1 is the answer to close open-wheel racing for the future?

[Richard]

I was surprised to see so many flames, I guess the fuel tanks aren't very well protected? Pippa Mann suffered severe burns that required an operation. So that's one outcome that could have been prevented.

As for cars on track, I gather they are normally limited to 26 cars on a 2.5 mile track. This time they had 34 on 1.5 miles?

F1 has constantly limited power and downforce to limit speeds. Moseley wasn't popular for doing so, but as Jackie Stewart said, extra speed doesn't improve racing and barely perceived by the spectator.

F1 banned catch fencing as a means of stopping cars running off the track. in 1985. Although it is still used to protect spectators areas from flying debris.

Finally, we do see F1 cars flying in the air, the difference is that they end up going down the track or into run off areas. We have also seen that the F1 roll hoop seems to work on landing, although that is on a blunt surface (tarmac or gravel).

[Pup]

Once again, I trot out the now 42 year old solution to most of open wheel racing's problems, the safe(r), (more) aerodynamically efficient, and (stunningly) beautiful Pininfarina Sigma:

http://www.madle.org/epmsigma.htm

Look, Ma! More space for sponsors!...

[countersteer]

I was surprised to see so many flames, I guess the fuel tanks aren't very well protected? Pippa Mann suffered severe burns that required an operation. So that's one outcome that could have been prevented.

I think a lot of the flames were oil fires fed by destroyed oil tanks, radiators, hoses, etc. It appeared that most of them extinguished quickly, on their own, unlike a fuel fire. There was one car that appeared to burn until the safety crew arrived but that, like de Silvestra's fire earlier this year, resulted from the bodywork igniting from the original oil fire.

If indeed a fuel cell was compromised, it should be added to the list.

[Tozza Mazza]

Is a canopy safer?

I doubt it.

If a driver is trapped in a car unconscious, when it's on fire, how will he get out?
You could have a release mechanism for the marshalls to get to, but that could compromise car performance, and more importantly, cannot be guaranteed failsafe, especially in the case of a fire, which could cause damage to the said release mechanism.

Motorsport is dangerous, as fans who have been to events have read, but it can be made safer for both the spectators and the participants.

Indycar needs to have a serious look at itself, is driving cars at 225mph around a 1.5 mile oval, with 35 very evenly matched cars and drivers safe? No, as multiple accidents have proved. It could learn from both F1 and LMP, as big accidents, such as Mcnish's and Rockenfeller's at Le Mans this year, have had drivers walk away.

Indycar needs to learn from this, and change now. Another incident like this may kill it off, and that would be a massive shame.

[jddh1]

Could the Red Bull X1 is the answer to close open-wheel racing for the future?

Check out this concept rendering of an closed cockpit F1 car (ignore the Kubica tag on the Ferrari) It's just an idea so lets not get into too many details.

[tommylommykins]

If a driver is trapped in a car unconscious, when it's on fire, how will he get out?
You could have a release mechanism for the marshalls to get to, but that could compromise car performance, and more importantly, cannot be guaranteed failsafe, especially in the case of a fire, which could cause damage to the said release mechanism.

The same applies with open-cockpit cars. The drivers fit so snugly and securely that nobody is going to pull a driver out from his care mid-fire.