F-Duct in 2011 and 2012 cars? Why not?

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
Fabi1111
Fabi1111
0
Joined: 30 Jan 2012, 20:26

F-Duct in 2011 and 2012 cars? Why not?

Post

Why do the cars in 2011 and maybe 2012 have no F-Duct (i mean the F-Duct from 2010, not the Front-wing-f-Duct, which is called W-Duct - i think ;).
Okay, the FIA do changed the rules and now the driver can´t do anything with his hands, just drive, but what is with a passive F-Duct, which Mercedes had in 2010?

Okay we have DRS, but you will have a so much better straight-line-speed in the races, that must be enough to install it?
So why not?

P.S: I hope you can´t understand everything. My english isn´t so good... Sorry

imightbewrong
imightbewrong
17
Joined: 07 Aug 2008, 16:18

Re: F-Duct in 2011 and 2012 cars? Why not?

Post

I think they made a rule change that removes the possibility of having the open section in the rear wing that is needed to stall it. I.e. the teams can no longer put a slit in the element to blow out air to stall the wing.

I might be wrong on that though.

Giblet
Giblet
5
Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: F-Duct in 2011 and 2012 cars? Why not?

Post

imightbewrong wrote: I might be wrong on that though.
Poignant.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

beelsebob
beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: F-Duct in 2011 and 2012 cars? Why not?

Post

Fabi1111 wrote:Why do the cars in 2011 and maybe 2012 have no F-Duct (i mean the F-Duct from 2010, not the Front-wing-f-Duct, which is called W-Duct - i think ;).
Okay, the FIA do changed the rules and now the driver can´t do anything with his hands, just drive, but what is with a passive F-Duct, which Mercedes had in 2010?

Okay we have DRS, but you will have a so much better straight-line-speed in the races, that must be enough to install it?
So why not?

P.S: I hope you can´t understand everything. My english isn´t so good... Sorry
Two issues – 1) you need a shark fin to do it, shark fins are banned 2) you need an additional slot in the rear wing to do it, which is also banned.

imightbewrong
imightbewrong
17
Joined: 07 Aug 2008, 16:18

Re: F-Duct in 2011 and 2012 cars? Why not?

Post

You don't need the shark fin. The rumor is (not sure it's been verified) that McLaren was using a passive F-duct at Monaco in 09, with just a hole in the main plane like most cars were running back then. So the real problem right now, is holes in the RW elements.

beelsebob
beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: F-Duct in 2011 and 2012 cars? Why not?

Post

imightbewrong wrote:You don't need the shark fin.
How else do you duct air to the slot in the rear wing in a controlled manner?

RB7ate9
RB7ate9
2
Joined: 13 Jul 2011, 03:03

Re: F-Duct in 2011 and 2012 cars? Why not?

Post

Supposedly Mercedes has some passive F-duct system (not W-duct, but an F-duct). Would it be possible to have ducts coming through the rear-wing endplates? Ejecting high energy air either above to stall or below to improve grip?

http://www.f1zone.net/news/mercedes-hid ... ept/12509/

beelsebob
beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: F-Duct in 2011 and 2012 cars? Why not?

Post

RB7ate9 wrote:Supposedly Mercedes has some passive F-duct system (not W-duct, but an F-duct). Would it be possible to have ducts coming through the rear-wing endplates? Ejecting high energy air either above to stall or below to improve grip?
No, this would break rule 3.10.1, as you'd get 2 cross sections in the end plate.
I'm not sure what this has to do with F-ducts.

User avatar
Holm86
247
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 03:37
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: F-Duct in 2011 and 2012 cars? Why not?

Post

beelsebob wrote:
imightbewrong wrote:You don't need the shark fin.
How else do you duct air to the slot in the rear wing in a controlled manner?
Mercedes did it through the endplates of their rear wing in 2010.

It was not effective but it could be done.

But you cant have an f-duct without a slit in the rear wing. And thats prohibited now.

RB7ate9
RB7ate9
2
Joined: 13 Jul 2011, 03:03

Re: F-Duct in 2011 and 2012 cars? Why not?

Post

beelsebob wrote: No, this would break rule 3.10.1, as you'd get 2 cross sections in the end plate.
I am trying to read the regulation and it's, naturally, a little hard to visualize. Does this mean that the cross-section must be uniform (i.e. no hollow end plates?)
beelsebob wrote: I'm not sure what this has to do with F-ducts.
The article mentioned - briefly - allegations that there was some sort of f-duct aspect "in addition to the DRS".

Perhaps it's not a real f-duct, but just something that directs air onto the rear wing.

beelsebob
beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: F-Duct in 2011 and 2012 cars? Why not?

Post

RB7ate9 wrote:
beelsebob wrote: No, this would break rule 3.10.1, as you'd get 2 cross sections in the end plate.
I am trying to read the regulation and it's, naturally, a little hard to visualize. Does this mean that the cross-section must be uniform (i.e. no hollow end plates?)
It means that if you take a slice through the end plate, using a vertical plane, parallel to the side of the car, you can only get one area filled in, never two. A hollow endplate would therefore be banned, because at certain slices, you get two areas – the one in front of the tube, and the one behind.

RB7ate9
RB7ate9
2
Joined: 13 Jul 2011, 03:03

Re: F-Duct in 2011 and 2012 cars? Why not?

Post

Thanks for the clarification. The more you know :D

beelsebob
beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: F-Duct in 2011 and 2012 cars? Why not?

Post

RB7ate9 wrote:Thanks for the clarification. The more you know :D
My bad though – I missread the rule, this one bans the slot in the rear wing, not in the end plate (it's too near to the car centre line to be the end plate)... I'm pretty sure there's another that applies to the end plate, just at the moment though, I need to head to work, sorry.

RB7ate9
RB7ate9
2
Joined: 13 Jul 2011, 03:03

Re: F-Duct in 2011 and 2012 cars? Why not?

Post

No worries, I'll take a deeper look at it. Have fun at work!

User avatar
MIKEY_!
7
Joined: 10 Jul 2011, 03:07

Re: F-Duct in 2011 and 2012 cars? Why not?

Post

Good thing I found this thread, I've been running a endplate exiting F-duct since I released my car in January.