Brake warping in F1

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AlpineF1
AlpineF1
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Joined: 02 Jul 2012, 13:21

Brake warping in F1

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Hello
Just wondering if the brakes warp in Formula 1 and how often the disks are replaced.
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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Brake warping in F1

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They don't warp, because the material is not metal, which is very malleable. The material is carbon-carbon which is brittle, so it just breaks apart.

The brake wear is significant for some tracks. I do not know how many grams of material is lost over a hard braking race but maybe somebody else does.
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AlpineF1
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Re: Brake warping in F1

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Oh thanks :D
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Kiril Varbanov
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Joined: 05 Feb 2012, 15:00
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Re: Brake warping in F1

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How It's Made - Ceramic Brake Discs (Brembo) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrhVHA-3ZBU
Disks are replaced as often as needed - I've seen disks replaced after two free practices.

AlpineF1
AlpineF1
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Re: Brake warping in F1

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Thank you! in retrospect that was a silly question haha #-o
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mzivtins
mzivtins
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Joined: 29 Feb 2012, 12:41

Re: Brake warping in F1

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How was that a silly question? :lol: most people who watch F1 would probably have no idea that the brakes would be a different material than their road car.

One question i have is... does warping even occur these days? I would rather call it run-out issues, in most cases brake pads would be glazed over far before warping any disc, so we come full circle... can an F1 car sufer poor surface run-out on its disc brakes? and what are the tolerances for this?

AlpineF1
AlpineF1
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Re: Brake warping in F1

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Well since i am doing a course in motor mechanics they are teaching us to measure brake wobbles (forgot the proper term) :lol: so i would've thought they do but i don't know the disks we were on were of a 1990 Nissan Micra, so plenty of warping there :)
And so you touch this limit, something happens and you suddenly can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct, and the experience as well, you can fly very high.
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mzivtins
mzivtins
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Joined: 29 Feb 2012, 12:41

Re: Brake warping in F1

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Oh is see :lol: In your studies are they touching on the fine line between the causes of pulsating brakes? Do you create the warped discs? if so how? just loads of heat then flash cooling? sounds like an awesome thing to be having a play with :D

AlpineF1
AlpineF1
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Re: Brake warping in F1

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From what i gather its quite common but usually happens over a relatively long amount of time when the brakes are hot and they splash on water this twists and warps the disk but the differences can only be measured in Millimetres so it is never really extreme. but is felt in the pedal and can damage the calliper over a period of time, and no we don't do the warping ourselves the college i am at (Derby Motor vehicle academy) buys or is donated cars they have full brake assembly's set up also they have around 8 engines to work on. :D
And so you touch this limit, something happens and you suddenly can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct, and the experience as well, you can fly very high.
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olefud
olefud
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Joined: 13 Mar 2011, 00:10
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA

Re: Brake warping in F1

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AlpineF1 wrote:From what i gather its quite common but usually happens over a relatively long amount of time when the brakes are hot and they splash on water this twists and warps the disk but the differences can only be measured in Millimetres so it is never really extreme. but is felt in the pedal and can damage the calliper over a period of time, and no we don't do the warping ourselves the college i am at (Derby Motor vehicle academy) buys or is donated cars they have full brake assembly's set up also they have around 8 engines to work on. :D
Cast iron rotors warp (or did) mainly because the production process left unrelieved stresses in the metal that became strains or warping when heated to high temps. It’s a bit of a problem in the stress relieving develops warping and machining the disks true causes new but smaller stresses. The problem seems to be substantially avoided in more recent OE disks (perhaps grinding rather than turning) though some aftermarket can be troublesome.

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Brake warping in F1

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On road cars, most of what people refer to a warped rotors...isn't warped rotors at all...I've seen better explainations but this is good enough. It's pad material...you cant get your cast iron rotors hot enough to actually warp.
Accordingan article in StopTech, the cause of brake vibrations or shimmies is the result of uneven transfer of brake pad material to the rotor, thus causing the variations in the rotor surface.

Standard road cars use brakes that function mostly by abrasion, or the breaking down of the bonds between the pad material molecules by the friction generated by pushing the pads against the rotors. Under normal city conditions, the worn-away pad material is simply carried away as brake dust (the black dust commonly seen on wheels). However, under heavier braking, such as an emergency stop or slowing down from a highway exit, the brakes become much hotter, and that material can actually 'cook' to the brake rotors.
The best way to aid in this 'cooking' process is to keep the pads in constant pressurized contact with the rotors... by remaining firmly on the brakes after the vehicle has come to a complete stop.
As the pad material bonds to the rotor, the surface of the rotor then becomes uneven, and the brakes begin to vibrate at high speeds. The brake rotors do not warp, however. Even the most extreme braking conditions on public roads do not generate enough heat to cause the brake rotors to warp.
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olefud
olefud
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Joined: 13 Mar 2011, 00:10
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA

Re: Brake warping in F1

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strad wrote:On road cars, most of what people refer to a warped rotors...isn't warped rotors at all...I've seen better explainations but this is good enough. It's pad material...you cant get your cast iron rotors hot enough to actually warp.
Accordingan article in StopTech, the cause of brake vibrations or shimmies is the result of uneven transfer of brake pad material to the rotor, thus causing the variations in the rotor surface.

Standard road cars use brakes that function mostly by abrasion, or the breaking down of the bonds between the pad material molecules by the friction generated by pushing the pads against the rotors. Under normal city conditions, the worn-away pad material is simply carried away as brake dust (the black dust commonly seen on wheels). However, under heavier braking, such as an emergency stop or slowing down from a highway exit, the brakes become much hotter, and that material can actually 'cook' to the brake rotors.
The best way to aid in this 'cooking' process is to keep the pads in constant pressurized contact with the rotors... by remaining firmly on the brakes after the vehicle has come to a complete stop.
As the pad material bonds to the rotor, the surface of the rotor then becomes uneven, and the brakes begin to vibrate at high speeds. The brake rotors do not warp, however. Even the most extreme braking conditions on public roads do not generate enough heat to cause the brake rotors to warp.
Image
Good point! My comments related to actual warping with an underbraked car on the track.

mzivtins
mzivtins
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Joined: 29 Feb 2012, 12:41

Re: Brake warping in F1

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With Strad on this one.

This is a constant issue faced with motorbike owners... i have TWICE had a pair of brand new unused braked discs with calipers and pads (around £1800 worth) be sent with the bike for MOT, only to fail due to 'Warped brake discs' as many others have.

Slightly different from cars, this is actually just brake disc run-out, for me the issue was caused by a tiny bit of paint overlap on my front wheel, causing the disc seated off very slightly. At high speed this gave vibration. A polish of the mating surface resulted in a fix.

The general perception of brake warping is completely wrong in my mind, as i'm sure Glafer braking really wouldn't let a set of warped discs leave their manufacturing facilities.