Abuse on the rating system

[wesley123]

Hello,

As after the introduction of the rating system, I was pleasantly surprised, actual crap posts were downvoted and others were upvoted, podts that are actually good. As over time good posters got higher and higher ratings, and at some point have a good enough rating to downvote posts. Well, I do not know what the actual number is for that, but over time more and more people will have the ability to downvote posts. This now reached so far that there are people seriously abusing the rating system.

I have noticed it since a few days, and most of the time I try to rectify wrong downvotes by upvoting the posts(since I barely vote).

note: The posts quoted here are merely used to show my opinion and are in no way meant to offend the poster
This case is well seen in the following topic:
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =1&t=14567

To see the opening post;

If money played no role, only talent, who would race F1 in 2013?

A's-
Hamilton
Vettel
Alonso

B's-
Raikkonen
Webber
Button
Rosberg
Schumacher

C's
Hulkenberg
Sutil
Massa
Kovelinen
Juan Pablo Montoya (higher level with better fitness and focus)
Grosjean

D's
Di Resta
Robin Frijns (potential to move up)
Jules Bianchi (potential to move up)
Buemi
Bottas
Perez
Gary Paffet
Sebastien Bourdais

Didn't make cut but almost-
Petrov
Alguuersuari
Kobayashi
Maldonado
Ricciardo

OK, there's 22 that made the cut. Don't worry about the exact level. If you add one to the list then you have to remove one. I think I'm missing too many non-F1 drivers such as DTM, Sports Cars, etc.

This post, in my opinion a decent post, nothing great about it, nothing wrong about it. This one was downvoted twice(and I upvoted it once).

And then the following post:

To be honest, any world champion must be in the A group. Even the dubious one like Button.

This one is uprated once. In what way is this post so great that it deserves to be upvoted? Nothing, there is no quality in the post at all, yet it is upvoted.

Then this post, my own:

To be honest, any world champion must be in the A group. Even the dubious one like Button.

I dont think so. The group A of what bill shoe posted are those that are simply the best, a driver that is consistently better than the rest, and honestly, Button is no way in that class. He is a very good driver, but more like a Webber, he is good and can win a world title when he would be able to, but is in no way damned quick in every possible situation.

With that said, that makes Vettel's ranking in the A's a bit doubtfull. Yes he has been quick, and damned quick. But was it the case when his car was lesser(like early 2012)? To me no, he is quick when his car is, unlike Alonso or an Hamilton, who are always quick, and can drive around problems they are having.

I agree with most of bills choices, however I dont think Grosjean should be in the C. Also we could put Hulkenberg in B(people praise him, dont ask me why, and I dont really agree with it).

Also Paffett? no not really, also Bourdais is doubtful. Paffett has pretty much only simulator experience and his last open wheel race is at least 10 years ago(?).

Perez in D too, no way. Perez has had its ups and downs and will grow, so should at least be a C or maybe even a B.


I'm not going to pick my 22, simply because it is not possible. I am confident there are a crap load of drivers out there(in GP2 for example) that are as quick as Massa for example.

It isnt a quality post, but neither is it fanboyism on in any way bad that it deserves a downvote, yet it is downvoted once.

We continue on with the following post:

Raikkonen & Schumacher in B-class, but Hamilton in A.

This one is upvoted. I mean, really? This particular post shows the abuse really well. There is no quality at all in the post, if it deserves any rating at all it would be a downvote. Why, you ask me? Because of the way it is stated it invites figths and fanboyism. It's content isnt any better than the post of Just a fan quoted earlier in this post, but at least his one was opinion, and not inviting to fanboyism. Posts like the last one I quoted are the reason the voting system exists in the first place, and it also show really well how it doesnt work anymore.

Then this post comes, due to it's low rating it is hidden at default(rated -2):

How can someone think drivers with consecutive titles aren't good enough to be in first group????

Titles is a testament to how many great cars you have driven and less what your actual skills are.

This post is another one that isnt great, neither is total crap that it deserves to be downvoted, yet it is.

And then there is this one:

and??? check what car had Michael and Kimi.... or do you think if car is good anyone can win title??? that's funny. You mean that Vettel isn't now the best driver on the grid?? just because Red bull is best car?

If anyone can win with a fundamentally good car? Yes. the rest of the guys are not incompetent, they are the creme de la creme of open wheel drivers.
Even Narain would win races in the RB7.

I honestly can´t see how anyone can say Vettel is the best driver on the grid. It´s completely incomprehensible to me.

Edit: now you get downvoted because of differing opinions... great forum this..no abusing of power what so ever...no no.
Gotta love the fact the person then tries to talk to you as if i would have any thoughts about responding to that type of person.

Once again downvoted, but the post is neither crap or great. Also Nando seems to notice the same thing I do.

And we move on to another one:

In no particular order in the various categories.

A´s

Alonso
Hamilton
Raikkonen
Vettel

B´s

Button
Rosberg
Schumacher (present time)
Webber
Perez
Hulkenberg
Di Resta
Kovalainen
Massa


C´s

Maldonado - super quick but overall still have a lot of work to do
Grosjean - same as Maldo.
Kobayashi
Vergne
Ricciardo
Petrov
Glock
Pic
Senna

Just giving his opinion, nothing more or less. He didnt even tell why so there wasnt any fuel for fanboyism, just simply his rating. And guess what? Yes, it was downvoted.

Nando, I have to say I read clipsy's post different than how you (seem to me to) have read it. I do not believe he is asserting Vettel as the best driver of the grid at the moment - but rather the reasoning that having the fastest car somehow discounts the driver. Even a driver driving the best car could also be the best driver. At least that's how I read clipsy's statement.

Right, and I think that's a completely flawed understanding of what "Best Driver" means. If that's what it means, then the skills a driver needs to be the best are being psychic, and able to predict the future. Not actually being able to drive.

Nothing bad and nothing great really, but it was downvoted.

You also misread my post, beelsebob.

My point is, it's possible that the best driver of the grid gets the best car of the grid. Therefore, it is possible that the best car is driven by the best driver. Therefore, best car does not mean non-best driver.

This post is upvoted. What is so great about it?

My conclusion is:
The voting system had an positive start, but as time moves on more and more people get voting rights, and more and more people get downvoting rights. And now we see the voting system turn into a system of opinion and whether or not you agree with a post, instead of the quality of a post.

[Tim.Wright]

I think a lot of people are sick of driver discussions on here because they always run out of control. I would have downvoted the first post if I could. I used to report driver discussion as off topic/spam but was told that these discussions are accepted so I gave up.

The main (technical) beef I have is "best driver" topics are sooo un quantifiable/too emotional, and when people try to quantify things they apply corrections for mechanical failures, different team mates, differnt cars blah blah blah its all becomes a massive handwaving match and makes the forum look cheap. Every time, without fail....

The second beef is that every one of these topics eventually degreades into a ----fight.

Just my opinion, I know the site owners don't see it my way

[flynfrog]

I think a lot of people are sick of driver discussions on here because they always run out of control. I would have downvoted the first post if I could. I used to report driver discussion as off topic/spam but was told that these discussions are accepted so I gave up.

The main (technical) beef I have is "best driver" topics are sooo un quantifiable/too emotional, and when people try to quantify things they apply corrections for mechanical failures, different team mates, differnt cars blah blah blah its all becomes a massive handwaving match and makes the forum look cheap. Every time, without fail....

The second beef is that every one of these topics eventually degreades into a ----fight.

Just my opinion, I know the site owners don't see it my way

I agree Tim. If you want to make a best divers ever thread make more than a list. First list your criteria you are rating by then gather data to support your claim other wise it seems that this site simply rates whether a driver is LH or SV.

If you want to get rid of down voting stupid threads and posts move them to a part of the fourm that does allow voting then we wouldn't have fanboy posters with high rankings.

[wesley123]

I think a lot of people are sick of driver discussions on here because they always run out of control. I would have downvoted the first post if I could. I used to report driver discussion as off topic/spam but was told that these discussions are accepted so I gave up.

True, most topics arent that great, but this one was quite decent. Also what you said doesnt really count for the upvotes

The main (technical) beef I have is "best driver" topics are sooo un quantifiable/too emotional, and when people try to quantify things they apply corrections for mechanical failures, different team mates, differnt cars blah blah blah its all becomes a massive handwaving match and makes the forum look cheap. Every time, without fail....

The second beef is that every one of these topics eventually degreades into a ----fight.

Just my opinion, I know the site owners don't see it my way

I agree, all of them will grow wrong eventually, but this same thing (the vote abuse)happened outside of that topic too. I just used that topic as an example, because it had like 6 posts of them, which I all used as an example.

Will try to add other situations(in other topics) too.

[wesley123]

If you want to get rid of down voting stupid threads and posts move them to a part of the fourm that does allow voting then we wouldn't have fanboy posters with high rankings.

That was already done, and then done again for more threads. Now you want to remove the rating on more threads? Then you can pretty much take it away already.

[flynfrog]

If you want to get rid of down voting stupid threads and posts move them to a part of the fourm that does allow voting then we wouldn't have fanboy posters with high rankings.

That was already done, and then done again for more threads. Now you want to remove the rating on more threads? Then you can pretty much take it away already.

to be honest I would delete them from the forum. They serve no purpose other than beef up post counts of users who otherwise add nothing of value other than humors entertainment.

[flynfrog]

Also just because you don't agree with someones vote does not make it abuse of the system. I down voted most of the posts you quoted above. they don't add anything to the forum and it is the kind of post I would like to see discouraged. Isn't that what the rating system is for?

[wesley123]

Also just because you don't agree with someones vote does not make it abuse of the system. I down voted most of the posts you quoted above. they don't add anything to the forum and it is the kind of post I would like to see discouraged. Isn't that what the rating system is for?

They are indeed to disencourage crappy posting. But to me these werent in that class, certainly with the upvotes you see in the same topic.

Sure it isnt really wanted on this forum to discuss drivers and why is one better than the other, but the posts in my example are no way "downvotable"

Let's take an example:

Desperate Housewives Season 9 script is being written by Ferrari and Alonso.

This was a legit downvote in my opinion, and in my opinion none of the posts I quoted, or that are placed in such topic come to an off topic level like this one.

Such posts should be downvoted in my opinion, since they are off-topic, useless and add nothing but rage, and the posts made in the topic I used as an example do not reach that level. To me there is a lot of difference in both, with the example of Nando's posts being huge. the posts Nando made certainly added something and those posts really gave me the feel that the voting was done based on a difference in opinion, not on a bad quality post.

"Hulkenberg is such a dumb monkey "

"In my opinion Hulkenberg lacks a bit of the technical know how that makes him an good driver."

There is a lot of difference in both posts, while the first one is crappy and the only thing it adds is fuel to a fire, the second one voices it's opinion pretty well and gives fuel for further discussion. There is a lot of difference between both, where the first should be downvoted while the second shouldn't. And mainly the second was going on.

Abuse might be a bit of a wrong choice for me in this topic, "misuse" might have been a better choice of words.

[turbof1]

I agree. You could pin some votes down on opinion, but we have chronically alot of decent posts downvoted and several crappy posts upvoted. Concerning that last one, IMO upvoting a good joke isn't anything out of line either, even if it is off topic. However, upvoting something that could heat up the discussion is plain wrong.

About the fact many topics are remade: True that might get irritating after a while. HOWEVER: the voting system is in there to vote on the quality of the post, not on the originality of the topic. We have moderators who monitor this forum and judge if 2 or more topics are too similar or not, and will act accordingly by merging topics. That is a task for the moderators; we as members should not be focussing on that. You think 2 topics are more or less the same? Use the report button.

There should be an option to contest a downvote, so a moderator can look at it. And IMO, 2 downvotes for a post to get hidden is too few. Should be more like 4 or so.

[Cam]

The key part of any voting is - its subjective. 'One man's trash is another man's treasure' goes the proverb and it couldn't be any more true when applied in here. Something you post as being 'great' simply isn't in the eyes of others. The opposite is also true. Accept that and your world will be happier.

Arguably, politics plays a part, shock horror, just as it does in the real world. Often, you can have something great to say only to be ignored or treated badly in that situation, simply because you act like a moron, more often than not. As an example of this, you'll find members arguing or complaining, post after post, when something doesn't go their way. They go to great lengths trying to justify their position - when that same effort should have gone into adding more, better content. This is a real turnoff. So when you come along with something of great value, it'll be passed over. If you get ignored, man up, take it on the chin and find a better way to connect with your audience.

You don't need to change the system as the system isn't broken - it's the people that use it. Once you understand that, you can then positively further your point of view, cause, mission, career, relationship..... etc.

[Jersey Tom]

I think a lot of people are sick of driver discussions on here because they always run out of control.

I'd upvote this if I could.

The upvote button says something to the effect of "Rate this post valuable and informative." The website is called "F1 Technical." In my mind, if something is technical or otherwise good and informative, objective.. that's worthy of a +1. Pure conjecture / BS / out of control posts or threads.. no thanks.

But as someone else said, it's subjective. Not everyone will agree on the same things. Every so often a crap post might get a +1 or a good one a -1. On the aggregate however, it should average out.

[hollus]

Wesley, it takes 25 rep points to gain the ability to downvote, currently there is bug that makes it need 26, but in any case, you will soon be there.

Of course there is always going to be some abuse of the system, it is people we are interacting with. And as just said, there will also be a good level of random noise. But overall, I consider this voting system a positive force for this forum, working moderately well. I am positively surprised that it hasn't been ran over by abuse yet.

You shouldn't feel bad about having to use your upvotes to neuter downvotes that you think shouldn't be there, or viceversa. I neuter bogus +1s quite often. That is also a fair use of your voting rights, that you have earned. The people that can vote the most can also do this the most. It is up to you to exercise your rights, and most high rep people are also regular valuable posters, so it would be a good thing if everyone did this.

In the coming days with the car launches, the voting system is going to go through its real trial of fire: massive amounts of posts and lots of users new to the site, that might or might not belong here and that mostly are unaware of the usual etiquette at F1T. It is up to the people with large voting rights to keep the house clean. In particular, this is what I fear:

What Tomba means:
"This post is valuable and informative"
vs.
"This post is not useful"

What a user actually sees:
+1
vs.
-1

What most people in the internet think it means (and this includes the new users soon to flood F1T), according to http://www.urbandictionary.com:
"1.) A post in a forum/message board that indicates the person agrees with a previous or quoted reply to a thread.
2.) Shorthand for "My thoughts exactly" or "me too". "
vs.
"Forum Lingo, When one disagrees with another"

So we will soon see whether 50 users with 10 votes each can overpower maybe a couple of hundred with one vote each that think it means what it means elsewhere.

Mods: Maybe it would be better to change the +1 and +1 icons for "useful" and "not helpful" or similar icons?

[flynfrog]

Desperate Housewives Season 9 script is being written by Ferrari and Alonso.

If money played no role, only talent, who would race F1 in 2013?

A's-
Hamilton
Vettel
Alonso

B's-
Raikkonsnip..
OK, there's 22 that made the cut. Don't worry about the exact level. If you add one to the list then you have to remove one. I think I'm missing too many non-F1 drivers such as DTM, Sports Cars, etc.

I see them as both equally worthless you don't you are more than welcome to vote them back up again. I on the other hand will save my upvotes for something more deserving.

[Richard]

IMHO ..... The best bit about the voting is that you can quickly see which threads are worth reading.

Yes, I do normally shut down driver threads very quickly, but that particular one seems good natured and doesn't single out any one driver. Given that we have next to no F1 news (apart from Lowe rumours), then this sort of generic list is a good way to while away the dark winter .... showing my northern bias!

Yes, there are some ups and downs in the detail of individual votes, but the collective outcome seem to be working as a signpost to conversations that are worth reading.

[wesley123]

I agree it's rating is subjective. And sure I understand that some people wish that such topics do not exist, but well people have different opinions on that.

Like richard said above me; "Yes, I do normally shut down driver threads very quickly, but that particular one seems good natured and doesn't single out any one driver. Given that we have next to no F1 news (apart from Lowe rumours), then this sort of generic list is a good way to while away the dark winter .... showing my northern bias!"

Topics like those in the example are a good way to get through the 3-4 months in the off season, the forum would be pretty much dead in the off-season if it wasnt for such topics. Also like Richard said, things were going pretty well in that topic.

There certainly seems to be some "disagreement" on how the rating system is handled.

For me it means the following:
+1 This post is informative and useful to the topic/forum
-1 This post is useless and unwanted in this topic/forum

For me an well written opinion(like the "In my opinion Hulkenberg lacks a bit of the technical know how that makes him an good driver.") doesnt fall in the -1 category. Why? Because to me it serves use, because it can continue in comparisions between Hulkenberg and other drivers, and discuss why that is the case, so therefore it is not useless in my opinion. Sure, it could use an argument, but still, it is not really that bad.

On the other hand, an fanboyish comment(like the "Hulkenberg is such a dumb monkey ") serves no use other than to piss off other users. And yes, such posts need to get rid of, and in my opinion needs the -1.

In my view it seems like others also would downvote the first comment too. While you are free to do so, if it is crap in your opinion, keep in mind that (in my opinion) the forum consists of 50% of those posts, every forum does.

And the rating, it shows how 'good' an topic is. It isnt really a good number to give it that view. I mean the Ferrari F2012 has like 40000 posts in it, and a rating of like 95. According to that, the F2012 topic would be of better quality than a topic of 5 posts and a rating of 5, because 95 is higher than 5.
A better way to show a topics rating is the avarage rating per post. so for the Ferrari topic that would be 95/40000=0.002375 Then of the other topic that would be 5/5=1 That in turn would give a much better indication in my opinion.

I personally barely up or downvote a post, mostly because I just dont bother voting, I only use the rating at a user, it gives a much better indication on whether or not the user is a 'good' user, because a user with a higher rating has made more quality posts.