kimi v perez abyss

[beelsebob]

To me that looks like the one allowed defensive move....

Right, that's what it looks like to me too. Crucially, the rule about one allowed defensive move says that you must always leave room for the other car if they're along side you. i.e. you can't ram them into the wall.

I'd have to say he didn't ram him into the wall. He just forced Perez to brake. That's what it looked like to me during the race, anyway.

And with the way Perez was all over the place today, I am inclined to apportion more of the blame on him.

Uhhh, he hit perez... that's very much ramming him into the wall... Perez was already breaking for the corner, he could not magically break harder. Kimi knew this, and still moved over in a way that he knew would hit perez and cause him to bounce into the wall.

While I agree that Perez was a bit of a lose cannon today, that does not change the fact that in this incident Kimi was the one who moved across and caused a collision.

[beelsebob]

Okay, you need your eyes examined. You can clearly see both Vettel and Hamilton taking the normal racing line there, turning in significantly later.

Even if it was the case it's irrelevant. Raikkonen is entitled to be there and pick the line he wants. You don't get to decide a normal racing line I'm afraid.

No, what decides the normal racing line, is what Kimi himself, and all the other drivers drive every lap of the race in which they're not defending. Kimi deviated from his normal line. This is termed in the rules a "move to defend". Such a move to defend is allowed, but he must leave space for the person along side.

I'm with zeph, Kimi is not turning into the corner – he is making a clear, decisive defensive move. In doing that, he must leave room for the car that's along side him.

Once again, at no point is Perez ever anywhere near until he outbrakes himself. The picture you post is one where Perez is only ever going to go straight on.

Provide evidence. Again, there's no evidence in either of these shots that either Kimi or Checo thinks that Checo is not going to make the corner. Clearly Kimi thinks he will make the corner, as he is moving across to defend against the move. Clearly Checo thinks he will make the corner, as he's not done anything crazy like locking up breaks.

His front wing is beside Kimi's rear wheel. That, for the purposes of the rules, makes him along side.

No it doesn't. They're already in and at the end of the braking zone before Perez hits him.

Yes, it very much does – the exact rule that states that this means that he is along side has been quoted several times in this thread.

If that were the case, Kimi wouldn't be bothering to defend.

Strange logic and completely irrelevant. Raikkonen can't possibly know that until Perez outbrakes himself and it's too late.

Ah, so you're saying that Perez hasn't outbraked himself? Or are you saying that he has, and that Kimi knows this, and yet is still for some reason trying to defend, and move his car across into a position that can only end in a collision?

Perez doesn't even lock a wheel in the incident, so I have no clue how you can claim he's not going to make th ecorner.

He hits him from several metres back. Raikkonen turns in, Perez never does hits him and goes straight on. Open and shut.

"Hits him from several meters back" <- I'm sorry, but I don't understand how he does this. Does he have a magical quantum physical car that can be both several meters back, and hitting at the same time?

Again, he's turning in significantly earlier than the other cars that appear in the same shot. I.e. he's not turning in on the racing line, he's making a defensive move.

It matters little if he was or wasn't making a defensive move. You can't brake stupidly late and hit people. Open and shut.

Sure it matters – it matters because the rules state that if you're making a defensive move, you have to leave space for any and all cars along side you.

[zeph]

Suppose I go out and stab 5 people. I'm tried and convicted of these offences. A month later, there's a stabbing in my neighbourhood, and I was out at the time... Am I magically guilty?
.

Seriously?!?

I thought we were all adults here.

[jamsbong]

Perez already got a harsh penalty as he ended up retired. He is still quite rookie like.

Other drivers who had been unlucky would be Maldonado and Ricardo. Both Chilton and Grosjean ruined their race.

[Clew]

Perez = Juan Pablo Montoya

[max_speed]

regarding perez's move of raikonen and alonso , he wasat fault on both times , as alonso summed it up , bad qualifying put him in the bunch of guys who have nothing to lose. raikonen and alonso were the victim of this lunatic. they both r fighting with vettel for championship and need points anyhow . we must remember last year alonso lost championship because of one such lunatic "grosjean" not because vettel was mega.

[Boudica]

Perez already got a harsh penalty as he ended up retired. He is still quite rookie like.

Other drivers who had been unlucky would be Maldonado and Ricardo. Both Chilton and Grosjean ruined their race.

He is not a really a rookie anymore, drivers like Kimi and Vettel were challenging for the WDC in their 3rd years in F1 and they were about the same age. Not that I think he should get a penalty now, but he should atleast get a talking to.

Kimi was driving a defensive line, but he was driving that same line for many laps in front of Perez. So Perez knew the line that Kimi was going to take, Perez did try the same move just a few laps before, but Kimi jumped over the chicane to avoid to contact. This is also why Kimi was driving so defensively to begin with. After the first incident Kimi did come over the radio and said that Perez was going to cause an accident.

Perez only had his front wing and tyre alongside Kimi's rear wheel, that isn't really enough along side, to go for a gap. People say that Kimi should have given Perez space, but how would Kimi have been able to do that? The only way he would have been able to do it at that stage, would have been to jump over the chicane, like he did on Perez's previous try. Perez also said afterward that Kimi could have avoided the accident if he would have skipped over the chicane.
To me this just seems wrong, because if you drive over the chicane you are also driving off the race track. Perez drove into a disappearing gap, as Kimi was always going to turn left to be able to take the corner, and he expected that Kimi should have driven off the circuit to avoid a crash with him. The chicane had a run off area where people could go straight on, but what if the outlines of the track where actually a wall? Would it be right to dive into a corner and expect the driver in front to either crash into you or into the wall? Would Perez even really have tried these same moves, if the chicane was a wall? The space exactly at that corner isn't exactly wide enough for two cars to go around side by side. If an overtaking move either results in the driver in front having to crash or drive off the circuit then I dont think the move was quite there to begin with. Perez himself would not have been able to take the chicane at normal speed with that inside line he was taking, even if Kimi wasn't there, so the chances are good that he just out braked himself.

[JamtriX]

So amateur like Perez. =D> Great drive for Rosberg. Thats just Monaco. pffft!

[Rikhart]

I can´t believe that some are actually defending, and even saying he was in the right, the actions of a driver that for a few races now has been driving like an absolute bully. He has been crashing left and right into button, its an absolute miracle he didnt cause a dnf for both of them yet. He forced raikkonen off track in china. Now in monaco, he threw his car into the inside of alonso, forcing him off track or collide. He did the same to raikkonen. Then he rammed raikkonen from behind, again taking the "get the hell out of the way or we crash". This isnt a racing driver, this is a lunatic at work. The line he was taking, as well as the place where he started braking meant he wouldnt have a chance in hell of even making the turn, he would just go straight on.

[andartop]

I wouldn't go that far to call the guy a lunatic, but as I said before this kind of driving is good enough for Playstation, not Formula 1. Well, actually, there are some online groups racing in GT5 who would have kicked him out after one such move!
Why is it that no other driver did the same thing during the race as Perez was doing in that chicane? Because they don't know how to overtake? Or because it was a silly, risky, Sato-move? Look at Sutil, Webber vs Hamilton and Button on Alonso and spot the difference to Perez' Kamikazi moves. How I miss Kamui...

[Racer X]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22675026

Kimi says Sergio should be punched in the face for the way he over took people in Monaco (a place where you don't overtake much usually,) and for how he TRIED to overtake him but wasn't able to because Kimi wasn't having it. He didn't avoid making contact he just closed up the space and kept racing.

Sergio argues that that's a normal thing to do there Button did that there to him for example and He (Sergio Perez) moved aside. Also Fernando Alonso maid a few small comments about it;

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/ ... ggression/

He points out the fact that he used to do things like that too. But when you have the Championship on the line and a slow car like they did this weekend you can't risk much.

He seemed to me to both acknowledge that taking risks like that is all good and normal but also hate that it was done to him. But he also added that all that risk taking is the reason Perez ended up parked before the race ended.

My opinion is simple Sergio was there to race to Maximise his race effort maybe even there to win and while I realise that had Kimi not cut into Sergio when Perez had the racing line already ,CHECO might still not end up winning. NOT at all but I respect that he was racing as if looking for that victory. Realistically at the most he was racing for 5th.
Here is what I think and ill make a reference to Jackie and Senna in an interview;


Jackie Stewart: Okay, let me ask you another difficult question: If I were to count back all the world champions, the number of times that they had made contact with other drivers, that you in the last 36 months or 48 months, have been in contact with more other cars and drivers than they might have done in total.

Ayrton Senna: I find (it) amazing for you to make such a question Stewart, because you are very expirienced-

Jackie Stewart: Hmm...Very.

Ayrton Senna: ...And you know a lot about racing. And you should know that by being a racing driver, you are under risks all the time. By being a racing driver means you are racing with other people. And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver, because we are competing. We are competing to win, and the main motivation to all of us is to compete for victory; it's not to come 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th.

Alonso I don't care about that guys a cheat. He wasnt to race and win with people moving aside for him to pass. He likes cheat Piquet can probably tell you something about that. Or McLarens pit crew can also tell you something about that too.

Which is why I'm sure he kept his mouth quiet. Basically I believe that Alonso would have done the same thing if he had the car this weekend and enough speed. Button did it too.

Kimi is just wrong, that's racing Sergio just raced.
Kimi didn't avoid making contact.

Does anyone know if the FIA is gona take action against Sergio Or Kimi.... Lol. Have they chosen not to investigate things at Monaco?

[Racer X]

Watch and learn Perez. Not all you can win but my god Webber and Hamilton are professionals.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H73kgM-EaQ[/youtube]


Also quite interesting contradiction here... Toto saying Hamilton mysteriously was off pace in last sector.
Hamilton saying he was told to hold a 6 second gap. And Brawn saying double-stops you can almost do one after another, no need for a 6 second gap basically.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad7v5J10Klg[/youtube]

I was expecting Webber and Hamilton to make contact, those 2 have history in the past, where Webber would rather make contact, than lose the place to an overtake.

Sergio did good its not about Perez it's about Kimi cutting into the wall. Sergio moved aside for Button when he did the same thing in the same corner also Fernando. Kimi how ever didn't move over and that incident could have been worse.

Isay its Kimis fault.

[Feint]

At some point it becomes a matter of respect for your fellow drivers. Prior to Monaco, Perez was 73 points behind Raikkonen. It is bad form to put a championship contender in a position where their only choices are to give up racing or crash. I wouldn't call for any penalties based off of the one incident, but eventually you have to notice a pattern of repeat behavior. He has been very aggressive with Raikkonen, Alonso, and Button. All of whom are former world champion's who deserve more respect than having to deal with a cocky newcomer trying to crash both of them.

[GrizzleBoy]

They deserve to be treated like racing drivers in a race, and that's exactly how they were treated.

Screw status.

Win your points or shut the hell up imo.

The fact of the matter is that Kimi was the only person who didn't defend Perez's attack in a way which didn't ruin anybody's race. Kimi lost points because he wanted to give Sergio the squeeze. I've seen so many people saying "he was taking the racing line." Kimi was nowhere near the racing line.

Both cars went for the space, neither backed out when they could, and both cars paid for it. Simple as that.

I'm also kind of tired of the Kimi stroking. He can say all kinds of crap on the podium like his curses couldn't melt butter, and he gets treated like a kid who just said something "adorable".

That Kimi just says the darndest things =D>

Imagine the backlash a person like Hamilton or Maldonado would get if they turned potty mouth with a mic in their hand, talked to their engineers like he were trash and threatened violence towards other people.

Furthermore, if Grosjean was sitting in that Lotus when it ended up squeezing another car into the barrier (especially when regs state that if a front wing is far enough up your car, that you need to leave space), there would be a million people questioning his "spatial awareness" and had he got up and said the things Kimi said, he'd be on a skewer.

Screw that. I have nothing against Kimi, but Monaco is a sham of a race and Perez was one of the only reasons it could be called a race that day.

Yes Perez ended up not finishing, but he did it at least trying to race at a track where most would just give up and I respect him for that at least.

[SectorOne]

The rules have never, and never will allow for running someone out of track,

They have actually. If you are on the inside coming out of a corner you can just claim the proper racing line and force the other guy out off-track.

Hamilton/Massa Hockenheim 07 or 08 i believe.
Hamilton/Webber Nurburgring 11.
Kimi/Webber China 12.

Or even Perez/Alonso Monaco 13. Perez gave no room, Alonso bailed and ultimately lost out. Perez does not have to make it two-wide into the corner because he´s claiming the racing line.

There´s plenty of examples where you can squeeze out your opponent coming out of corners and not face a penalty.
Funnily enough it´s only F1 where this sort of thing is accepted in motorsport.

Edit: and just on top of my head Alonso Kubica but the track slipped my mind. Alonso was told to give the position back because he was squeezed out and bailed on the corner instead of sneaking in behind Kubica.

Edit2: And the infamous Kimi/Hamilton SPA 08. Kimi just drove him out and legally did so.