F1 can learn from WRC

[jamsbong]

I think F1 can learn from this:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_BlcS1xSTk[/youtube]

Instead of tyre contributing 50% of the suspension work, F1 should have low profile tyres like WRC do.
That way, you can actually fit some proper size brake discs and have proper low profile tyre size that is relevant to road use.

Thick tyre walls are only relevant to trucks and aeroplanes. not todays' cars.

I know F1 is complaining about costs and other excuses. In the end, I think I have to agree with Bernie, this is an expensive sport. if you can't afford it, you shouldn't try so hard to hold everyone back. After all, how often is it that a team with no budget is able to achieve anything?

[Jersey Tom]

Instead of tyre contributing 50% of the suspension work, F1 should have low profile tyres like WRC do.
That way, you can actually fit some proper size brake discs and have proper low profile tyre size that is relevant to road use.

IMO there is no relevance between road cars and race cars, never has been, never will be. And what's wrong with current F1 brake package? Is 5G of deceleration not sufficient then? Will 15+ inch carbon brake disc development help make the brakes on the family minivan better?

Thick tyre walls are only relevant to trucks and aeroplanes. not todays' cars.

I'd say the majority of cars or consumer vehicles in the world are on relatively high aspect ratio tires, and a relatively small amount on anything low profile.

[gt6racer]

I wouldn't use WRC as the driver, but I would agree that the profile of the tire should be reduced. The automotive world is working to reduce rolling resistance to improve fuel economy and this generally means we need reduced tire compliance. In addition, the move to run flats poses similar challenges. Whilst occupant comfort may not be a big driver in F1, tire contact force is, and the intense focus on how to manage the setup for the stiffer tires would be useful to the industry.

[jamsbong]

IMO there is no relevance between road cars and race cars, never has been, never will be.

Since you started the discussion this way. There sounds to me like a closed case.

Oh well...

[AlpineF1]

If there was no relation between F1 and race cars and road cars why do we have ABS, Traction Control etc Formula 1 has come out with many safety innovations in the past that have been put into road cars.

[jamsbong]

I prefer F1 to be an evolving sport.
I think opening up the rules around the wheels makes sense. Automotive companies are always keen to use motorsports as a form of marketing. That was how motorsport was born anyway.

High end cars technology usually end up on a normal car some years down the track. And high end cars tech can come from motorsports tech.
Porsche is a great example. The BMW i series is another. Going back in time, Jaguar was the first company that uses disc brakes, today all cars uses it.

The power unit of 2014 cars will eventually be a version of Ferrari road car. Eventually some of these ideas will be mass produced and cheapen so that it becomes affordable to normal cars.

Oh and what AlpineF1 just said makes sense.

[banibhusan]

If there was no relation between F1 and race cars and road cars why do we have ABS, Traction Control etc Formula 1 has come out with many safety innovations in the past that have been put into road cars.

Well if you are saying that these technologies were invented in F1 and transformed into road cars then I guess that's not correct. The first version of ABS existed when even F1 wasn't born.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_ ... em#History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traction_c ... em#History

Though I admit the amount of research and tech involved in F1 was always higher but I seriously don't believe most of it would be a cost effective solution for road cars.

And regarding the safety aspect of road cars, I once asked a friend of mine who is in Mercedes about how much of an effect F1 has on the safety standards of moderns cars. And his reply was minimal to none. The safety standards followed by F1 car designers would be mostly irrelevant when designing a road car, because the requirement is totally different. It may be useful if you are designing a P1 or a LaFerrari, but for standard road cars, no use whatsoever.

[Just_a_fan]

If there was no relation between F1 and race cars and road cars why do we have ABS, Traction Control etc Formula 1 has come out with many safety innovations in the past that have been put into road cars.

ABS was developed for aircraft back in the 1920s, Traction Control was developed on road cars (Buick?); both were borrowed by F1.

The only relationship between F1 and road cars is the fact that both are, by the simplest definition, cars. That's it.

F1's tyres have hugely different requirements to a road car's, likewise the brakes. F1 uses aero to give the minimum possible lap time, road cars use it to reduce fuel use and improve acoustic comfort for the occupants. F1 suspension is designed to maximise the tyre's grip, road car suspension is about isolating the occupants from the road (i.e. comfort).

F1 is a luxury "sport", it is not a hot bed of research for road cars.

[AlpineF1]

If there was no relation between F1 and race cars and road cars why do we have ABS, Traction Control etc Formula 1 has come out with many safety innovations in the past that have been put into road cars.

ABS was developed for aircraft back in the 1920s, Traction Control was developed on road cars (Buick?); both were borrowed by F1.

The only relationship between F1 and road cars is the fact that both are, by the simplest definition, cars. That's it.

F1's tyres have hugely different requirements to a road car's, likewise the brakes. F1 uses aero to give the minimum possible lap time, road cars use it to reduce fuel use and improve acoustic comfort for the occupants. F1 suspension is designed to maximise the tyre's grip, road car suspension is about isolating the occupants from the road (i.e. comfort).

F1 is a luxury "sport", it is not a hot bed of research for road cars.

I see ABS was yes, those where 2 examples (admittedly wrong) here are some more, i would like to point out that the difference between an F1 car and a 1920's airplane is huge and had it not been for F1 perfecting the design for safe use we may have never had it on road cars. Also an innovation from airplane to road use thanks to Formula 1 is the monocoque chassis first adopted on the Lotus 25 i believe active suspension came from F1 too? Its not always the actual cars themselves that are going back to road use. Shell use stats and figures from Formula 1 to improve there fuel, and also KERS is the most recent innovation although only seen on high performance one off cars i see it coming down the market as the technology advances.

[Just_a_fan]

I see ABS was yes, those where 2 examples (admittedly wrong) here are some more, i would like to point out that the difference between an F1 car and a 1920's airplane is huge and had it not been for F1 perfecting the design for safe use we may have never had it on road cars.

Again, it was not "perfected" in F1. Main stream road cars were using it before F1 got in on the act. Concorde had the first electronic ABS system in the 60s. I think Concorde had the first carbon brakes too (although I'm happy to be shown otherwise). Disc brakes (someone mentioned Janguar introducing them in the 50s) were first used on road vehicles in the late 1800s and on cars in 1902 (Lanchester patented a system for road cars).

Also an innovation from airplane to road use thanks to Formula 1 is the monocoque chassis first adopted on the Lotus 25 i believe active suspension came from F1 too? Its not always the actual cars themselves that are going back to road use. Shell use stats and figures from Formula 1 to improve there fuel, and also KERS is the most recent innovation although only seen on high performance one off cars i see it coming down the market as the technology advances.

The monocoque was borrowed, yes. Chapman also developed it in road cars too - I believe the Elan was the first composite monocoque road car for example.

Fuel development may be an area where F1 helps the road user but the key difference between road and race fuel doesn't really cross over because they are designed for different uses.

KERS might be an area where the road car picks up F1-style tech. We'll have to see.

So other than the debatable issue of KERS, F1 hasn't really brought anything to road cars. It has no relevance to road cars. It's just expensive entertainment with it's own internal agenda.

[Jersey Tom]

If there was no relation between F1 and race cars and road cars why do we have ABS, Traction Control etc Formula 1 has come out with many safety innovations in the past that have been put into road cars.

More often than not technology is developed outside of racing, and then gets borrowed / implemented by racing some years later.

Radial tires...

Fuel injection...

Micro hydraulics...

ABS...

The list goes on. There's just heaps more R&D money and people in the consumer world. Racing is a drop in the bucket. It's entertainment, nothing more or less.

[raymondu999]

Will 15+ inch carbon brake disc development help make the brakes on the family minivan better?

Yes

If F1 moves to 6G deceleration, I'll be able to stop my Alphard in 2G deceleration

[Tommy Cookers]

in-service use of aircraft ABS was post WW2
this was a US military system that was made available to the UK V bomber program (nuclear) around the Berlin airlift/Korean war
the system was produced in the UK as the Dunlop Maxaret
this I know from a letter (in the Civil Service Motoriing Association mag) from someone directly involved

btw the famous UK Vandervell engine bearings were the US (Clevite) technology, Alfin was also US technology

monocoque is a vague term that means little to engineers
in cars it seems to mean a structure without internal stiffeners, so allowing bag tanks
but F1 etc Matras (Ferraris ?) had for years aircraft type structures with stiffeners and sealed for 'wet' tankage (until banned)
Connaught designed a mid/rear engined monocoque F1 car around 1955 (it was not made)
the front engined BRM F1 was about half monocoque (from 1955 ?)
GM were making unitary cars in the late 30s, followed by everyone else before and/or after WW2
the original Lotus Elite around 1959 was a production GRP unitary construction (after the Rochdale ?)
as monocoque as can be, but nobody called any of these things monocoque at that time IIRC

[andylaurence]

I see ABS was yes, those where 2 examples (admittedly wrong) here are some more, i would like to point out that the difference between an F1 car and a 1920's airplane is huge and had it not been for F1 perfecting the design for safe use we may have never had it on road cars.

The Ford Granada had it in '85 and I'm pretty sure the Audi Quattro did too. There were production cars running it 15 years prior to that...

Also an innovation from airplane to road use thanks to Formula 1 is the monocoque chassis first adopted on the Lotus 25

The Mini preceded the Lotus 25.

i believe active suspension came from F1 too?

The Citroen XM wasn't the first, but is the most well known. Admittedly a couple of years after F1.

Its not always the actual cars themselves that are going back to road use. Shell use stats and figures from Formula 1 to improve there fuel,[/url]

Of course companies use it for marketing purposes. That's the primary aim of any company sponsoring an F1 team.

and also KERS is the most recent innovation although only seen on high performance one off cars i see it coming down the market as the technology advances.

Leaving aside the Prius, which uses electric motors to augment ICE power, the Honda Civic Hybrid is more similar to F1-style KERS, although harvesting and deployment of KERS is automated.

[jamsbong]

Relevance to road cars aside, i still think that F1 is a sport filled with technical innovations. It is one of the very few sport programmes that i watch.

I think at some stage the rules around the wheels should be opened up. Just like the way the engine rules have opened up. Ferrari should be happy with 2014, since they have lost many championship with an aero dominant F1. LOL.

With a larger disc brakes, there will be more room to package in stuff which currently is not practical. There will be more control on the suspension setup because the tyre would contribute less.
Also, the contact patch between tyres and road will be controlled differently. All these will be a fantastic challenge to the teams. And drivers will feel a different behaviour driving the car especially at low speed.