Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
BMW has announced that ALL of its cars, including Rolls Royce and SUV's, [except MINIs and 1 Series] will be electrics or plug in hybrids with a front and rear electric motor. Engines will be strictly for range extender duty and as such will not require turbocharging or variable valve systems. No 14 speed or DSG transmissions, either. There will be no central driveshaft or rear differential.
So my question to you is this: IF Formula One pretends to be "relevant" to production cars and if production cars are all going to be electric or phev's in 5 years, what possible reason would any engine manufacturer have for getting involved with Formula One now? And what reason would any current engine manufacturer have for staying in the sport?
Even Bernie cannot twang his magic twanger and prevent the future from happening. To quote Robert Zimmerman of Hibbing Minnesota: "There's a battle outside and it's ragin'. It will soon shake your windows and rattle your walls, for the times, they are a'changing."
Thoughts?
Some men go crazy; some men go slow. Some men go just where they want; some men never go.
no need to worry one bit.
if any, with a little luck Formula E will become more or less popular, and F1 can run V12's again with hybrid.
F1 as the super-hypercar frenzy and Formula E for the 'green' treehugging greenpeace loving greentea drinkers
everybody happy.
BMW can enter Formula E. With Toyota. and perhaps Audi.
Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, Honda in F1 with hybrids.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"
MOWOG wrote:what possible reason would any engine manufacturer have for getting involved with Formula One now? And what reason would any current engine manufacturer have for staying in the sport?
None, that might be the reason many manufacturers are interested on FE while there´s not much interest on F1. BMW is best example, not interested on F1 while very involved in FE providing the SC and medical car. Or Audi, with no interest on F1 and a team into FE
Last Eprix Agag said there are many manufacturers interested on FE second seasson where battery and motor development will be allowed, and not only battery, motor or car manufacturers but also those who provide different components for the car
IMHO F1 will continue being the pinnacle for very few seassons, the only doubt is how many, but the outcome is pretty clear
Manoah2u wrote: with a little luck Formula E will become more or less popular, and F1 can run V12's again with hybrid.
F1 as the super-hypercar frenzy and Formula E for the 'green' treehugging greenpeace loving greentea drinkers
Except EV´s have the potential to be much faster than ICEs, only the battery is preventing this to happen right now, but that´s only a matter of time. I don´t know if it will happen in 5 or 10 years, but EVs will be faster than ICEs, period
You just have to look at the fastest ground vehicles on planet, high speed trains. They all are electrics because they don´t need a battery, wich is the only limiting factor today
On a car, with better batteries (LiS and LiO on their way), they will be lighter, the CoG will be lower, the mass distribution will be way way better, TC and ESP will be on a different league with one motor per wheel.... too many advantages to list them all... and you should notice I´ve only talked about advantages that will make EV´s faster on the track, didn´t mention anything about pollution or environement....
Only the old boys with nostalgic point of views who don´t accept innovation will be interested on ICE´s in very little time
Manoah2u wrote: with a little luck Formula E will become more or less popular, and F1 can run V12's again with hybrid.
F1 as the super-hypercar frenzy and Formula E for the 'green' treehugging greenpeace loving greentea drinkers
Except EV´s have the potential to be much faster than ICEs, only the battery is preventing this to happen right now, but that´s only a matter of time. I don´t know if it will happen in 5 or 10 years, but EVs will be faster than ICEs, period
You just have to look at the fastest ground vehicles on planet, high speed trains. They all are electrics because they don´t need a battery, wich is the only limiting factor today
On a car, with better batteries (LiS and LiO on their way), they will be lighter, the CoG will be lower, the mass distribution will be way way better, TC and ESP will be on a different league with one motor per wheel.... too many advantages to list them all... and you should notice I´ve only talked about advantages that will make EV´s faster on the track, didn´t mention anything about pollution or environement....
Only the old boys with nostalgic point of views who don´t accept innovation will be interested on ICE´s in very little time
now the interesting thing about his induction-loading is the possibilities 'on the run'
obviously, this houses the problem of probable HUUUGE costs. and the fact that the amount of energy 'transferred' can't be too much 'on the run' at this point. What the future brings is another question though.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"
MOWOG wrote:BMW has announced that ALL of its cars, including Rolls Royce and SUV's, [except MINIs and 1 Series] will be electrics or plug in hybrids with a front and rear electric motor. Engines will be strictly for range extender duty and as such will not require turbocharging or variable valve systems. No 14 speed or DSG transmissions, either. There will be no central driveshaft or rear differential.
So my question to you is this: IF Formula One pretends to be "relevant" to production cars and if production cars are all going to be electric or phev's in 5 years, what possible reason would any engine manufacturer have for getting involved with Formula One now? And what reason would any current engine manufacturer have for staying in the sport?
...
Thoughts?
It will be a very long time before any pure electric can run a 2 hour race at close to 1000 hp (a good reason for F1 to go to >1000hp). Also the turbo compounding now used in F1 is a practical way to significantly improve fuel efficiency, at least for relatively expensive cars.
So I think F1 can stay very relevant by optimizing the current formula to allow more electric power to be applied. Say allow unlimited MGU-K power and configuration (including multiple MGU-Ks with some attached to the front wheels for 4 wheel drive and regen braking). To have some limit on electric power, do not include the battery in the minimum weight. That will encourage battery development...
Hmmmm....some interesting responses here. The general attitude seems to be very accepting of more electric power in future race cars. I can see that getting battery and electric motor manufacturers involved but not more ICE makers.
Say allow unlimited MGU-K power and configuration (including multiple MGU-Ks with some attached to the front wheels for 4 wheel drive and regen braking).
That sounds a lot like most of the LeMans cars of today, particularly the Porsche 919. I can only imagine the complexity of the electronic control system that allows an ICE in the rear and a totally separate electric motor in the front to work together without sending the car down the track sideways.
And we saw last year how regen on the rear wheels made the F1 cars squirrelly under braking. What must it be like to have regen on the front wheels? Maybe I'll ask Mark Webber next time I see him.
From a marketing point of view, I see Ferrari being the biggest loser as F1 continues its embrace of electric power. Ferrari has always been about engines. It's entire corporate soul is based on producing the best ICE engines on the planet. How is that going to play among the faithful as ICE's become mere donkeys whose sole purpose in life is to spin generators?
Gazing into my crystal ball, I see F1 moving in the direction of LeMans/WEC in its technology. Perhaps that will open a window for a real Formula One "legends" type series featuring cars like Stewart and Clark used to drive. Yeah, it would probably have to be a spec series, but it would be hugely popular with guys like me who are old enough to remember those days.
Some men go crazy; some men go slow. Some men go just where they want; some men never go.
No need for regen on the front.
You can harvest just as much energy from two wheels as from four.
Motors on front give better traction potential and many handling benefits.
Any ICE will be for range extension only.
chip engineer wrote:
It will be a very long time before any pure electric can run a 2 hour race at close to 1000 hp (a good reason for F1 to go to >1000hp).
Lithium air cells can do that now. But they're not particularly rechargeable. But battery swaps alleviate that issue. They're working on it though.
Manoah2u wrote: with a little luck Formula E will become more or less popular, and F1 can run V12's again with hybrid.
F1 as the super-hypercar frenzy and Formula E for the 'green' treehugging greenpeace loving greentea drinkers
Except EV´s have the potential to be much faster than ICEs, only the battery is preventing this to happen right now, but that´s only a matter of time. I don´t know if it will happen in 5 or 10 years, but EVs will be faster than ICEs, period
You just have to look at the fastest ground vehicles on planet, high speed trains. They all are electrics because they don´t need a battery, wich is the only limiting factor today
On a car, with better batteries (LiS and LiO on their way), they will be lighter, the CoG will be lower, the mass distribution will be way way better, TC and ESP will be on a different league with one motor per wheel.... too many advantages to list them all... and you should notice I´ve only talked about advantages that will make EV´s faster on the track, didn´t mention anything about pollution or environement....
Only the old boys with nostalgic point of views who don´t accept innovation will be interested on ICE´s in very little time
Impresive as a record breaker, nothing else because that battery doesn´t last for a quarter of a FE race
Drayson battery is 20kw/h, FE battery is 28kw/h, and Drayson provide around 4x FE power, so with same battery it would last a quarter of a FE car, but the battery is smaller....
It´s been built as a record breaker, and for that purpose it´s awesome, but for a complete race batteries need to improve quite a lot yet to be able to complete a decent lenght race at that power level
But that´s what LiS and LiO batteries will do in a short-medium term, that´s the reason F1, IMHO, has an expiring date no matter how much electric/hibrid power they allow. Well, obviuously this will always depend on FIA, and the development they allow for each series
I don't think Formula One has an expiration date, ever. I'd see Formula E being the experimental 'rolling laboratory' that will eventually merge with Formula 1. The safenet about Formula E is that if it turns out to be a total failure, it can just vanish and nobody will miss it. Big constrution errors and tech errors aren't concidered 'big' because it's a new formula with a learning path.
F1 can not take the punches or loss that Formula E can house. It took them years to step over to hybrid power and it took them years to be able to glide into V6T's.
The smart move of the FIA is that they now have perfect compromise; they are making F1 greener, and they can take their time without getting too much 'heat' from 'treehugging nazis' in their neck because they an point them to the Formula E.
Both Formula 1 is gaining knowledge from stepping into hybrid era, which is beneficial in all sorts of ways.
Meanwhile, Formula E is bringing electric racing into the picture without having the big contractors breathing in their necks and without having an immense amount of [political] pressure on their shoulders. They have the time to develop.
The benefit is that knowledge gained from Formula E WILL be transferred to the benefit of Formula 1.
You could argue Formula E is the future, and that all-electric power will indeed be the future. I personally doubt that, but i'm not going to wander more offtopic here. In any case, IF that indeed will be the case, and ICE power will become obsolete, then the FIA will make a very easy decision; transfer technology from formula E completely to Formula 1, which will introduce big manufacturers back into F1 that have good E-intel.
GP2 then will become GPE, and the rest will become junior teams.
Either way, Formula 1 is safe.
Personally however, i think ICE powerplants have a longer life in the shelves then might be assumed.
I think the V6T engines will not have too much new manufacturers entering F1 in the short future, obviously for regulation 'flaws'. Honda will join, but after that, either only Audi might join - which i have realised is not going to happen after all because of the [short] future.
V6T will not have a long lifespan. It's that simple. After 2020, there is no development potential, and all that F1 has left is electric power train improvement and aero improvement. Will not be enough.
I can say without doubt that after 2020, sooner or later, but not too late, INLINE-4 cylinder powerhouses will be introduced into F1, perhaps even 3-cylinder versions. Which will attract Volkswagen/Audi into F1, Ford, and perhaps Toyota and BMW [who already will have E-tech by then]. Mercedes, Renault and Honda will have no problem 'adapting' to this engine format.
Only Ferrari will have their questions about they'd accept 4-cyl engines, but if all goes well, i'd say Ferrari is focusing more and more on having a very powerfull electric engine. I'd say Ferrari understands the future, too, and will realise they'll have to beat the competition by constructing the BEST electric engine in the world.
They can transfer V6T Hybrid engine for many years into their roadcars, whilst adapting to i4T Hybrid engines in F1 in the meantime.
I'd say in 2025 we'll be seeing Inline 4-cylinder [split]Turbo engines paird with powerfull Hybrid packages in F1 atleast until 2033. Manufactureres I can seriously expect are plenty! Which is good for Motorsport.
Ferrari, Renault, Mercedes, Audi/VW [porsche? Bernie won't make it that long], Honda, BMW, Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infinity.
That makes for atleast 8 teams. RedBull might turn into Renault by then, Honda will def still be with Mclaren, and then there's Williams that can house any kind of powerhouse. Easily 20 cars to field the grid with.
We won't be seeing an all-electric Formula 1 before 2030 at the earliest. By then technology will have advanced enough to start worrying less about battery life. I can see replaceable batteries in the pitstops by then.
Politics will be part of this, too. Car manufacturers will be trying to keep the petrol/diesel engine alive for as long as they possibly can, something the Oil industry will definately be advocating too. F1 is an important platform for this.
Lifespan of V6T engines is not long [ not talking about mileage, talking about usability in F1 format ]. Lifespan of i4T after that MIGHT be a tiny bit longer, and will be much more attractive for manufacturers.
Full electric F1 is atleast 15 years off, without a single doubt in my mind.
I wouldn't worry about F1 in this sense. How F1 cars will look like in 15 years is a totally different story alltogether though.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"
All F1 needs to do is to allow every kind of propulsion method and energy recovery WITHOUT raising the minimum weight limit.
Just set
- a minimum weight limit of 650kg including driver
- a minimum weight limit for the driver including clothes and helmet (80kg), ballast to be added just behind his hip
The let the teams decide what the best(fastest) solution is. This way F1 will always use state of the art technology, light and high density batteries and electric motors, small and efficient ICE engines. If that isn't road relevant...
For the beginning DO NOT limit the electric energy/power, just say that all petrol/diesel/hydrogen energy you use during the race has to be onboard at the start of the race and cannot be higher than 5GJ.
Wouldn' this be great and a real challenge for all kind of engineers?
Dear FIA, if you read this, please pm me for a redesign of the Technical Regulations to avoid finger nose shapes for 2016! :-)
autogyro wrote:No need for regen on the front.
You can harvest just as much energy from two wheels as from four.
Motors on front give better traction potential and many handling benefits.
Any ICE will be for range extension only.
depends how much more braking the front does on an F1 car, on road cars the rear brakes usually just rust away
because they never gets used much
