Leaf Springs

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m3_lover
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Joined: 26 Jan 2006, 07:29
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Leaf Springs

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I was wondering why Corvettes still to this day use leaf springs for its suspension? Is there any adv/disadv's compared to a strut or double control arms?
Simon: Nils? You can close in now. Nils?
John McClane: [on the guard's phone] Attention! Attention! Nils is dead! I repeat, Nils is dead, ----head. So's his pal, and those four guys from the East German All-Stars, your boys at the bank? They're gonna be a little late.
Simon: [on the phone] John... in the back of the truck you're driving, there's $13 billon dollars worth in gold bullion. I wonder would a deal be out of the question?
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Downforce
Downforce
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They are cheaper. :lol:

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m3_lover
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Joined: 26 Jan 2006, 07:29
Location: St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada

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I know a strut is cheaper then control arms, but not a lot of car companies use leaf springs except for trucks.
Simon: Nils? You can close in now. Nils?
John McClane: [on the guard's phone] Attention! Attention! Nils is dead! I repeat, Nils is dead, ----head. So's his pal, and those four guys from the East German All-Stars, your boys at the bank? They're gonna be a little late.
Simon: [on the phone] John... in the back of the truck you're driving, there's $13 billon dollars worth in gold bullion. I wonder would a deal be out of the question?
John McClane: [on the phone] Yeah, I got a deal for you. Come out from that rock you're hiding under, and I'll drive this truck up your ass.

ginsu
ginsu
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Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 02:23

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Corvettes use leaf springs because most Americans do not demand better. Of course, even fiberglass leaf springs are sub-standard but somehow Chevy gets away with it. In America, people are far more obssessed with overall power than cornering prowess. Fortunately, I live in a mountainous region that has many winding roads, but the majority of America lives in the midwest where the roads are completely flat and completely straight. The Corvette is built for people in the midwest.

And, yes, it's cheaper too.
I love to love Senna.

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
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Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

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The rear leaf spring system for the modern Corvette isn't the typical leaf spring system most of us assume. It's fiberglass/composite, and there is just one. It resides under the rear differential, and each end attaches to the respective left and right wheel uprights. It's a novel and cheap solution that still is effective. The Corvette has independent suspension at each corner, modern aluminum A-arms. The leaf spring just holds up the rear, it is not used to locate suspension geometry. That is left to the modern A-arms. If you examine this cutaway, just under the rear differential you can see the leaf spring, as well as modern independent rear suspension.
http://www.seriouswheels.com/2005/2005- ... 0x1200.htm
Yes, the target buyer for the US Corvette is middle aged conservative. And despite being handicapped by being targeted for mass production for relatively mild sporting enthusiasts, it still is an effective, reasonably inexpensive, and reliable high performance car.

manchild
manchild
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Fiat has been using "balestra transversale" on rear axle starting with model 128 (late '60s) although it had front drive. Not to mention much older Fiat models that used tranversal leaf spring on front axle (rear drive). Even some old F1 cars like Alfetta 159 had it on front axle.

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Figlio_del_Diavolo
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Joined: 20 Mar 2006, 22:07
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An interesting side note on the Vette's composite rear leaf spring: My professor for my experimental mechanics course, Dr. Kowalski (http://www.kettering.edu/mech_eng/mecheng_T0_R700.html), worked on the the project when they decided to make the switch to a GFRP from conventional steel composition.
"Some people will tell you that slow is good - and it may be, on some days - but I am here to tell you that fast is better." - Hunter S. Thompson

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Spencifer_Murphy
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When reading a Clarkson book once he told the story of how he metr an American policeman who came alongside the Corvette he was driving and said; "God damned 'vette spins so easy you could park it outside a store and comeback and its facing the other way! Its the worst car in the world, leave the keys in it tonight, hopefully somebody will steal it!" LMAO!
Silence is golden when you don't know a good answer.

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flynfrog
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006, 22:31

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Its not a horrible thing the spring is light compact and works well.

while the vette is not my favorite car it does seem to hold its own with cars costing twice as much with or without the leaf spring

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Figlio_del_Diavolo
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flynfrog wrote:Its not a horrible thing the spring is light compact and works well.

while the vette is not my favorite car it does seem to hold its own with cars costing twice as much with or without the leaf spring
Exactly. It fulfills what they need it to do. No sense investing more in a new system when the current one works fine and is cost effective as well. Especially given the Corvette's price, like you said.
"Some people will tell you that slow is good - and it may be, on some days - but I am here to tell you that fast is better." - Hunter S. Thompson

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m3_lover
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I totally agree with the corvette being a super super value for the money you spend and the cars you can compete against. It can hold it's own against other cars for sure.

The best suspension type would the double arms in motorsports right?

Also in C5-r and C6-r that are used for racing do they still use the leaf springs. This is not a corvette bashing thing and I love the corvette, just curious about it that is all.
Simon: Nils? You can close in now. Nils?
John McClane: [on the guard's phone] Attention! Attention! Nils is dead! I repeat, Nils is dead, ----head. So's his pal, and those four guys from the East German All-Stars, your boys at the bank? They're gonna be a little late.
Simon: [on the phone] John... in the back of the truck you're driving, there's $13 billon dollars worth in gold bullion. I wonder would a deal be out of the question?
John McClane: [on the phone] Yeah, I got a deal for you. Come out from that rock you're hiding under, and I'll drive this truck up your ass.

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
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Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

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The current Corvette has fully independent suspension front and rear, with aluminum A-arms at all four corners. Technically, state of the art for productioncars. But it uses the leaf spring to hold up the rear end. Springs are springs, be it coil, torsion, or leaf. It depends on the packaging issues, and where you want the forces to be transmitted to the chassis.

ginsu
ginsu
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Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 02:23

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Also in C5-r and C6-r that are used for racing do they still use the leaf springs. This is not a corvette bashing thing and I love the corvette, just curious about it that is all.
They definitely use coils in the race car, but probably because it's much easier to work with coilovers in terms of ride height changes.

Apparently, there has been some extensive discussion on this matter as I found out when I probed a bit deeper. This excerpt should answer most of our questions:
What are the advantages for the Vette?

This is an article written around the time the C4 was released. It covers a lot of the reasons why GM retained the leaf suspension

http://web.telia.com/~u60113742/misc/su ... spring.gif

The big advantages are:

-It weights A LOT LESS than coil springs. One leaf replaces two coils. The two coil springs weigh 3 times as much as the one leaf. Additionally the leaf is placed at the bottom of the car. In addition to removing weight you lower the CG.

-It acts as an anti role bar. The article above explains how this works so I won’t. The advantage is you can run lighter anti-role bars because the springs are taking care of part of the job for you.

-The leaf springs never wear out. The vendor of these springs has never had to replace one due to fatigue failure. Coil springs to were out but you typically don’t notice on smaller, lighter cars. You do see it more on old, heavy Caddies and such. The improved fatigue life was really evident compared to the C3’s steel leaf spring. Thus this is an advantage over coils but not a big one.


What are the drawbacks for the Vette?

-They are expensive. We normally don’t think of leaves as the expensive suspension but in the case of the Corvette, coils would be cheaper. The Vette already has all the parts a coil sprung double A arm suspension would use. Pull the leaf off, replace the shock with a coil over and you’ve converted the Vette. Since the rest of the system is the same, the cost comes down to the price of 2 coils or one spring. Well if it was a steal leaf spring it might be cheaper (remember truck suspension is cheaper because the leaves also act as links).



If it’s so good why don’t other people use it?

It’s legitimate to ask, does GM know something that Ferrari, Porsche etc don’t know or are the people at GM just being pig headed and sticking with “outdated” technology.


Street cars:

-You must design them into the car in the first place. This seams obvious but consider these springs span across the bottom of the car. In the front they have to clear the engine oil pan and in the back they have to stay out of the way of the differential. Basically, you can retro fit coils on the Vette because the mounts can be shared with the shock mounts. For the most part you can’t retrofit Corvette style leaves onto other cars because you would have to add mounts that don’t exist on the regular car.

-GM and their supplier spent a lot of time and money developing the Vette’s composite spring. Currently they are the only manufacture with the knowledge and understanding to make the springs work. On the other hand, coil springs are common and well understood. Lots of vendors can make them in a wide variety of configurations. It’s easier for the other manufactures to stick with what they know. Other manufactures would have to study the design and manufacture of composite leaf springs before they could pop them on the next Supra-NSX-Type-GT. GM did that work years ago. Toyota could certainly afford to develop their own composite springs if they wanted. The same may not be true for smaller companies like Ferrari and Porsche.

-Engineers like to stick with what they know. Lots of suspension engineers are familiar with using coil springs. They could experiment with leaves if they wanted or they could stick with coils and get the job done. See the point about undertaking a research project.

-Coils are cheaper. This automatically keeps them off lower cost cars (Miata, Civic) and cars that share platforms with lower cost siblings (Audi TT). Porsche isn’t worried about saving every last dollar but there suspension and chassis design may not allow packaging a Corvette type leaf. The same is probably true of Ferrari. Even if packaging isn’t a problem they still have to pay for tooling to make the springs. Unlike the GM who spreads that cost over 30,000 Vettes a year, Ferrari would spread that over maybe 2000 cars a year. Porsche would be somewhere in between. Conversely I can get coils made with relatively low setup cost and a cheaper per part cost. So not only would they have to spend more per car, they have to spend a lot more up front.

-Perception. Just like pushrods, the leaf spring as a stigma attached to it. The reasons for the stigma are legit (key component to heavy and typically poor handling suspension). However the reality is the sum of the older parts was the problem, not a specific part of it.

-Some Do! Volvo used a transverse leaf spring on the 960.

What about race cars? (this section is almost verbatim from another post of mine.

To start off, not all race cars use coil springs. Some F1 cars (Ferrari and others) use torsion springs instead. Years ago Indy and F1 cars DID use leaf springs but those days are long past.


The current design of open wheel racecars places great restrictions on suspension packaging. The Corvette’s transverse leaf spring must span from one side of the car to the other. Also, to be most effective the links between the spring and suspension arms should be under tension. This makes a bottom mount spring most effective. This packaging doesn’t work well on an open wheel car because the spring would have to pass though the gear box around the dif (or the gear box would have to be raised and hurt the car’s CG). At the front the driver’s legs would get in the way. Additionally the spring is wide and would have to extend past the body work where it would hurt the car’s aero package.


NASCAR rules dictate coil springs on the rear axle. They probably originally used leaves but given the option any car designer (modifier back in the day?) would have replaced the leaves with a multi-link set up. As I said before the multi-link offers better control of the rear suspension.


Another good reason is only a few companies understand the technology necessary to make the springs. Hypercoil is currently the top race spring manufacture. They can make very precise, matched spring pairs. The level of precise spring rate control and matching may not exist in the composite bow springs.


Coil race springs are not car specific. You select rates, diameters, length etc but you don’t have a specific spring for a specific car. If you want to order a custom spring Hypercoil will wind it to your specifications on the same machine they use for the next custom spring. A custom Porsche, Formula Ford and LMP car spring can all be made on the same machine. By the time the C6 evolves into a C6-R (they don’t start off with a production Corvette) the suspension geometry is so different that they couldn’t just mount a C6 leaf spring. It’s far too expensive to have a few custom leaf springs tooled up (you would have to buy the tooling as well as the springs) so they use readily available coil springs.


This type of universal tooling isn’t availible for the composite leaf spring. Only the Vette currently uses the spring so you are making a Vette only part. This seriously reduces the market for aftermarket composite leaf springs (still there are after market leaf springs available for the Vette). The business case for custom equipment to make Vette springs is harder to justify since it’s a smaller market.


Why don’t other cars retrofit leaf springs? Well they also don’t retrofit torsion springs despite the fact that F1 cars use them. Put simply it would be VERY difficult. The Vette was designed to have them. It has mount points under the car where the springs fit to the suspension sub frames. It’s not easy to just add that to a car that was designed to use a coil spring. All of the cars you mentioned would have to be re-engineered to add leaf springs. Replacing the factory spring with a racing is easy by comparison.


The other VERY significant reason is racers will use what they know. They will put effort into learning about new technology (torsion springs in F1) but ultimately it is too there advantage to stick with what they know.


Would the Vette be better with coil springs?

Well that depends. As I said before, there are a lot more options available in coil springs. If I want to substantially change the Vette’s spring rates then I will need to go to coils. Also, if I want to totally get rid of the Vette’s anti roll I need to dump the leaves because they provided some roll resistance.


BUT…

If for some reason I just lost my leaf spring (maybe someone stole it to make a very strong bow and arrow) and had to replace it with coils. I want the same ride quality, the same spring and roll rates etc. Basically I want the car to be the same as before but with coil springs. Assuming you didn’t change anything but the springs (same tires, shocks, ride height, same spring rate and effective roll rate, etc) the Vette would unquestionably be SLOWER with coils instead of the leaf setup. Basically if all else is equal, the coils are heavier and raise the CG of the car. One other small advantage is the shocks on the leaf sprung car will move more freely than the car with coilovers. When used as a coil over, coils impart a bending load on the shocks that cause them to bind a bit. On a street car you will never notice but on a race car it can cost a tenth of a second or so. (Hypercoil markets a pivoting spring perch to reduce the effects of side loading in coil over shocks).

Again, if I decide I really want to race I will likely dump the leaves because I have more options with coils. For a reasonable (in racing terms) price I can get custom coils made. The same isn’t true of the composite leaf spring.
I love to love Senna.

RH1300S
RH1300S
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Joined: 06 Jun 2005, 15:29

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First, we shouldn't assume that a leaf spring is inferior to any other spring. The spring's job is pretty simple, effectively to support the vehicle and absorb/distribute any loads being fed to & from the tyre. Coil springs are pretty easy to package as the often have the damper inside them and I would imagine quite cost effective (think McPherson strut).

Torsion bars are out of fashion these days with many production cars, but are used extensively (exclusively?) in F1.

A pretty good summary above about why the Corvette has leaf springs. I would take issue about it taking roll bar duties - a spring is a spring is a spring and will restrict roll to some degree in any installation. An ARB actually connects one wheel to the other and is a weight transfer device (as well as adding spring rate to one wheel in roll) - any load applied to one end of the bar takes load away from the other end (how much depending on stiffness.....)

EDIT: Sorry Dave - didn't read your post - yes, I agree

bob from usa
bob from usa
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Joined: 05 Jun 2006, 16:05

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old thread but I thought I would add this link. It explains how the leaf spring acts as an anti-roll bar.

http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c4/gcrous ... spring.gif

from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... af_springs