Renault's B-team

[factory_p]

So we have all heard Renault's complaints about B-teams in F1. Especially red bull / Toro Rosso and Ferrari / alfa ( /haas).

But when they are done complaining and the FIA will not rule it out, the best option for them will be to get a similar partnership with a team.

Surprisingly Merc is not really investing much in a B-team yet, but I suspect Force India who already gets Merc engine and gearbox could become theirs.

That leaves 2 options for Renault : McLaren (already their engine customer) and Williams.

Being already an engine customer and having struggled for pace these past years, it would make sense for McLaren to start cooperating with Renault. Share wind tunnel time, share gearboxes and rear suspension, etc.. to speed up the development. But McLaren a B-team? I really can't picture that. So if it's what Renault is after, that sounds unlikely to me.

That would leave Williams. Renault and Williams have a great history together winning championships in the early 90s. And Williams is in big troubles lately, which may force Claire to revise her position towards being a B-team. Anyway if things keep going like this, Williams might soon be for sale and won't be valued very high on the market, so Renault might just take shares and impose their vision.

What's your feeling about all this?

[aran.vtec]

Renault first need to clear the b team field before they think about creating a b team.

[Big Tea]

The other option is to sell the team to a friendly, or use Mclaren as the flag and just supply engines.


A team owned and run by Alonso perhaps? Would be no shortage of sponsorship and funding, and factory backing of the engine?

[marmer]

the only good thing about Renault is the driver pairing is strong. team has no leader the car is slow and the engine might now be the worst... who would want them as engine provider mclaren only want them because of the fallout with honda they would much rather have a merc.

if your a B team or a C team like williams you would't want to buy the worst engine on the grid unless it was cheap. the engine is the only good thing at Willams

if they don't fix things this year i don't see why they should continue as a team i really don't they could easy give it to a company they are close like Nissan or sell up.

[Phil]

I think you need to draw a distinction between “B team” (as in the Haas model) or customer.

McLaren is a customer.
Williams is a customer.
Racing Point is a customer.
Sauber/Alfa is a customer.

Haas and Torro-Rosso is what probably is referred to as “B team”. The lucrative thing being the intel & parts sharing.

The rest are customers. They are not in F1 to aid their engine manufacturer. Their aero and chassis, everything they build in-house is proprietary. They are competing effectively with their manufacturer.

Some of those customers are financially in a very bad place, so have secondary agreements in place for cheaper engines for perhaps a race seat or other sort of agreements.

Renault is not complaining about customer teams, e.g. the privateers, they are complaining about the “Haas model” (as did Mercedes too).

[Jambier]

Renault's strategy is:

- Preventing top teams to have B teams
- Hope that budget cap is set

They run a team compliant with budget cap regulation, and they are waiting to see it become real also for top teams.
Top teams don't want that, and will use B team if budget cap is decided.

So I think

- Mercedes don't want a B team, and don't want budget cap: They will leave if it become real
- Renault don't want to have the same budget than top teams: They will leave if budget cap doesn' become real
- Ferrari is preparing for both scenarios

And I don't see any reason for McLaren to be a B team: They have more ressources, more budget than Renault, and they have Seidl and James Key arriving.

It makes more sense that Renault drop Enstone and ally with McLaren like Honda is for RB

[Jambier]

I think you need to draw a distinction between “B team” (as in the Haas model) or customer.

McLaren is a customer.
Williams is a customer.
Racing Point is a customer.
Sauber/Alfa is a customer.

Haas and Torro-Rosso is what probably is referred to as “B team”. The lucrative thing being the intel & parts sharing.

The rest are customers. They are not in F1 to aid their engine manufacturer. Their aero and chassis, everything they build in-house is proprietary. They are competing effectively with their manufacturer.

Some of those customers are financially in a very bad place, so have secondary agreements in place for cheaper engines for perhaps a race seat or other sort of agreements.

Renault is not complaining about customer teams, e.g. the privateers, they are complaining about the “Haas model” (as did Mercedes too).

Alfa is different...

- 100 million budget added from same group than Ferrari
- Ferrari driver academy driver
- Former Ferrari driver
- Former chief designer Ferrari (Resta)
- Engine Ferrari
- Rear end / Gearbox /brakes from Ferrari

Same front wing philosophy...

So it's more a B team than Haas IMO

[Pany]

Now Renault is fully B team. This is result of last 4 years politics and strategy

[bill shoe]

Last I heard, Renault thought they could make F1 work for them on less money than other manufacturers. So they either thought they could be clever and beat Merc/Ferrari/RedBull for less money, or they thought they could knock around the upper-midfield and that would be OK for their marketing needs. B-teams costs money to buy and run, so that seems out of consideration.

Interesting question is whether Renault is OK with their current situation and if not then what do they do? In some ways the RB drama/abuse since 2014 has distracted Renault from looking itself in the mirror and really figuring out what kind of team they want to be when they grow up. 2019/20 will be two years with superb drivers and without RB, so I think they can't duck those internal questions anymore.

[Tzk]

I guess that renault is already waiting for the 2021 budget cap. Redbull, merc and ferrari will have to cut costs and reduce headcount significantly while renault might get away with smaller changes.

The big question is if the big three can develop their 2021 car before the cap hits and how big their advantage is going to get while doing so.

[JordanMugen]

Now Renault is fully B team. This is result of last 4 years politics and strategy

Lol.

Anyway, I think Renault should definitely start a B-team to market Infiniti as on par with Mercedes-Benz.

In fact, perhaps Renault-Nissan's primary F1 team should be Infiniti given that is Renault-Nissan's prestige brand.

[marmer]

I wouldn't bring infinity into F1 only makes sense for the us market which is small in F1 Nissan would be a far better choice but personally I think if Nissan was allowed to have go themselves they might to a better job than Renault.

I don't understand why Renault think F1 is good for there business anyway it's not like they make good performance cars anyway the odd sporty hatchback amongst a collection of family cars. No one buys a Renault based on there F1 performance. At least mercedes Ferrari and McLaren can say look at us we make fast race cars and fast road cars so they must be good

[JordanMugen]

I wouldn't bring infinity into F1 only makes sense for the us market

Surely the target should be for Infiniti sales in Europe to rival Mercedes-Benz sales in Europe! Aim big!

At least mercedes Ferrari and McLaren can say look at us we make fast race cars and fast road cars so they must be good

Nissan Nismo make a supercar however... I agree, the portfolio of Nissan-Renault brands are very messy and in-cohesive.

Renault also have their own fast and exciting sportscar brand to rival any Lotus or McLaren: Alpine [Why did Renault think they need yet another brand!? ]

So why not, say, rebrand the Alpine A110 as a Infinti's entry level sportscar (Porsche Cayman rival). Rebrand the Nissan GTR as Infiniti's supercar (Porsche 911 Turbo rival). Remould the existing Infinti SUVs as sporty rivals to the Porsche Cayenne and Porsche Macan. Finally, rebrand the Renault F1 team as the Infiniti F1 team -- what do you say?

I don't understand why Renault think F1 is good for there business anyway

Exactly, why promote Renault in F1 when the F1 team could instead be a platform to promote Renault-Nissan's flagship luxury brand, a direct Mercedes-Benz rival^ ? Infinti needs to perceived as a French-Japanese car, and not as a Japanese car. If this can be done, I suspect Infinitis will sell better in Europe.

^ Not withstanding that some of the Infinti cars actually are Mercedes-Benz products.

There seems little rationale to promote Renault in F1!?

Ford made a similar transition from Stewart-Ford to Jaguar-Cosworth. They didn't see the merit of promoting Ford, when they could instead promote their luxury brand Jaguar (why Ford thought they needed a second luxury brand in addition to Lincoln, is inexplicable however...).

[marmer]

I wouldn't bring infinity into F1 only makes sense for the us market

Surely the target should be for Infiniti sales in Europe to rival Mercedes-Benz sales in Europe! Aim big!

At least mercedes Ferrari and McLaren can say look at us we make fast race cars and fast road cars so they must be good

Nissan Nismo make a supercar however... I agree, the portfolio of Nissan-Renault brands are very messy and in-cohesive.

Renault also have their own fast and exciting sportscar brand to rival any Lotus or McLaren: Alpine [Why did Renault think they need yet another brand!? ]

So why not, say, rebrand the Alpine A110 as a Infinti's entry level sportscar (Porsche Cayman rival). Rebrand the Nissan GTR as Infiniti's supercar (Porsche 911 Turbo rival). Remould the existing Infinti SUVs as sporty rivals to the Porsche Cayenne and Porsche Macan. Finally, rebrand the Renault F1 team as the Infiniti F1 team -- what do you say?

I don't understand why Renault think F1 is good for there business anyway

Exactly, why promote Renault in F1 when the F1 team could instead be a platform to promote Renault-Nissan's flagship luxury brand, a direct Mercedes-Benz rival^ ? Infinti needs to perceived as a French-Japanese car, and not as a Japanese car. If this can be done, I suspect Infinitis will sell better in Europe.

^ Not withstanding that some of the Infinti cars actually are Mercedes-Benz products.

There seems little rationale to promote Renault in F1!?

Ford made a similar transition from Stewart-Ford to Jaguar-Cosworth. They didn't see the merit of promoting Ford, when they could instead promote their luxury brand Jaguar (why Ford thought they needed a second luxury brand in addition to Lincoln, is inexplicable however...).

Lincoln is completely irrelevant outside of the USA and your confusing luxury with sporty some jaguars have been quite fast

[hurril]

Maybe they should make an A-team first.