Run-off and track limits

[outer_bongolia]

It has been very frustrating to watch the races with the penalties for exceeding the track limits recently.

I understand the track has 51 other weekends it needs to make money so that it doesn’t go bankrupt. So, they have to have track days. But it is hard to make money from peopl paying $1k if they have to fix all the damage to the car after they go off the track and into sand. So, the new tracks have forgiving run-offs.

And we expect the F1 drivers to pay attention to not going off the edge of a white or a green line while driving 200km/h.

I was wondering if there was another way to enforce the track limits. Like the sticks that the put in the apex to prevent the drivers from cutting inside. Removable speed bumps are also proving useful. I wonder why they are not used more often.

May be Bernie was into something when he was talking about rain- keeping the run-off areas moist could also be a solution (for slower corners - we don’t need another Grosjean). A driver going off would risk a spin-off.

[Hoffman900]

Yeah, put grass and gravel in like US tracks. The gravel / grass is a non-issue for the motorcycle riders as well here (FIM/Motoamerica Superbike).

A racer friend said of this debate, and F1’s overly complicated solutions, just make them look like a bunch of dorks.

[DChemTech]

They had some good solutions for this on Tatooine...


But joking aside, I don't regard the track limits in themselves as much as a problem, more the inconsistent application thereof (in particular, the per-race evaluation of which corners to actively monitor, and which ones not). There should be no question: where you can race, you can overtake, and if your car is somewhere it shouldn't be, there should be repercussions (there may be some room for 3 mistakes, but cumulatively, not per-corner). It would be a big leap forward if the FIA fixed that at least, but there is a dedicated topic for this issue anyway.

I think another solution that does not damage the car, or compromise safety to some degree, is tricky. I'm not opposed to grass and gravel, or rough track surfaces or so slowing the car down, but there are always risks.

[adrianjordan]

It has been very frustrating to watch the races with the penalties for exceeding the track limits recently.

I understand the track has 51 other weekends it needs to make money so that it doesn’t go bankrupt. So, they have to have track days. But it is hard to make money from peopl paying $1k if they have to fix all the damage to the car after they go off the track and into sand. So, the new tracks have forgiving run-offs.

And we expect the F1 drivers to pay attention to not going off the edge of a white or a green line while driving 200km/h.

I was wondering if there was another way to enforce the track limits. Like the sticks that the put in the apex to prevent the drivers from cutting inside. Removable speed bumps are also proving useful. I wonder why they are not used more often.

May be Bernie was into something when he was talking about rain- keeping the run-off areas moist could also be a solution (for slower corners - we don’t need another Grosjean). A driver going off would risk a spin-off.

These are supposed to be the best drivers in the world and yet they have trouble staying within track limits?? Give me a break. They push the limits as much as they think they can get away with. Can't stay in the lines going as fast as you want to, sorry, go a bit slower.

I have no problem whatsoever with track limits being enforced so long as they don't start punishing drivers who are forced off to avoid a collision.

[RZS10]

I think this would be right place to discuss this? viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29448

[outer_bongolia]

I think this would be right place to discuss this? viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29448

LOL. I missed that.

It seems there is an annual track limits complains thread

[KeiKo403]

well when it's been raining the drivers are able to know exactly where the white lines are and they don't even put 1 wheel on those kerbs, let alone 3.999999 wheels.

I really would like for the FIA to use the rest of this season for a zero-tolerance approach to track limit violations and try to start 2022 without all of this silly nonsense of changing approaches from track to track, corner to corner and even day to day. White lines define the track limits, it's already in the rules.

Is there any other rule (sporting or technical) that the FIA don't 100% enforce?

[SiLo]

Should just be the white lines everywhere, not even the curbs. 2 wheels inside the white lines at all times. Should be fairly easy to fit the transponders in the centreline of the car, and then retrofit them to curbs where this is an issue.

Otherwise, small strip of grass around the track will do the trick.

[Zynerji]

Should just be the white lines everywhere, not even the curbs. 2 wheels inside the white lines at all times. Should be fairly easy to fit the transponders in the centreline of the car, and then retrofit them to curbs where this is an issue.

Otherwise, small strip of grass around the track will do the trick.

A transponder antenna wire attached to the ground 1m away from the white line could be used to detect a transponder in the nose when going over (1m+ means the inside wheels are off track) and can just activate the pit limiter for 3 seconds.

I'm sure they would figure it out very quickly after that.

[SiLo]

Should just be the white lines everywhere, not even the curbs. 2 wheels inside the white lines at all times. Should be fairly easy to fit the transponders in the centreline of the car, and then retrofit them to curbs where this is an issue.

Otherwise, small strip of grass around the track will do the trick.

A transponder antenna wire attached to the ground 1m away from the white line could be used to detect a transponder in the nose when going over (1m+ means the inside wheels are off track) and can just activate the pit limiter for 3 seconds.

I'm sure they would figure it out very quickly after that.

If they really want to keep it safe, just add 2 seconds onto your time at the end of the race each time you trigger the transponder.

[Zynerji]

Should just be the white lines everywhere, not even the curbs. 2 wheels inside the white lines at all times. Should be fairly easy to fit the transponders in the centreline of the car, and then retrofit them to curbs where this is an issue.

Otherwise, small strip of grass around the track will do the trick.

A transponder antenna wire attached to the ground 1m away from the white line could be used to detect a transponder in the nose when going over (1m+ means the inside wheels are off track) and can just activate the pit limiter for 3 seconds.

I'm sure they would figure it out very quickly after that.

If they really want to keep it safe, just add 2 seconds onto your time at the end of the race each time you trigger the transponder.

Nah, that could change everything through blocking/pitstop stacking, etc.

Penalty should be instant slowdown and then back on it...

[El Scorchio]

Should just be the white lines everywhere, not even the curbs. 2 wheels inside the white lines at all times. Should be fairly easy to fit the transponders in the centreline of the car, and then retrofit them to curbs where this is an issue.

Otherwise, small strip of grass around the track will do the trick.

A transponder antenna wire attached to the ground 1m away from the white line could be used to detect a transponder in the nose when going over (1m+ means the inside wheels are off track) and can just activate the pit limiter for 3 seconds.

I'm sure they would figure it out very quickly after that.

That would be incredibly dangerous. You'd just get cars running into the back of each other.

[Big Tea]

Should just be the white lines everywhere, not even the curbs. 2 wheels inside the white lines at all times. Should be fairly easy to fit the transponders in the centreline of the car, and then retrofit them to curbs where this is an issue.

Otherwise, small strip of grass around the track will do the trick.

A transponder antenna wire attached to the ground 1m away from the white line could be used to detect a transponder in the nose when going over (1m+ means the inside wheels are off track) and can just activate the pit limiter for 3 seconds.

I'm sure they would figure it out very quickly after that.

That would be incredibly dangerous. You'd just get cars running into the back of each other.

It would not need to be an 'engine cut', just a delta on their display for crossing the line that lap.

It could even be a '3 strikes' thing with an amber, flashing red then red so it would not come to the driver as a surprise and he may keep off the grass after the second.

[El Scorchio]

A transponder antenna wire attached to the ground 1m away from the white line could be used to detect a transponder in the nose when going over (1m+ means the inside wheels are off track) and can just activate the pit limiter for 3 seconds.

I'm sure they would figure it out very quickly after that.

That would be incredibly dangerous. You'd just get cars running into the back of each other.

It would not need to be an 'engine cut', just a delta on their display for crossing the line that lap.

It could even be a '3 strikes' thing with an amber, flashing red then red so it would not come to the driver as a surprise and he may keep off the grass after the second.

Could do. I think the current system of the engineer informing the driver works pretty well already, though but a visual reminder never hurts, if there's a sensible place to display it.

But any kind of penalty that involves a car slowing right down in the middle of a race is a huge no. It's a recipe for a huge crash. Maybe just make it a drive through penalty for three or five transgressions. That'll get them to stop doing it pretty quick smart. A five second time penalty is absolutely no deterrent.

[Stu]

This ran for a while in another thread.
I like the idea of using the transponder (already in the car for the start-grid); I would grade the penalties as follows:
Strike 1 - disable DRS for one lap
Strike 2 - disable ERS deployment/charging for one lap
Strike 3 - drive-through pit lane

I’m fairly sure that would help them to ‘colour in between the lines’.