Electromagnetic damper?

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
User avatar
tomislavp4
0
Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 17:07
Location: Sweden & The Republic of Macedonia

Electromagnetic damper?

Post

Whats this?
http://mediacenter.gazzetta.it/MediaCen ... ..Formula1
Magnetic dumper or something.... :roll:

User avatar
Scuderia_Russ
0
Joined: 17 Jan 2004, 22:24
Location: Motorsport Valley, England.

Post

An e.m. of some sort at a guess.
"Whether you think you can or can't, either way you are right."
-Henry Ford-

scarbs
scarbs
393
Joined: 08 Oct 2003, 09:47
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

Post

This guy has raised a few rumours about Ferraris suspension, the first was automatic ride height changes and latterly magnetic dampers. I doubt either have been reported accurately, but I am sure there is something clever going on with their dampers thats still within the letter of the regulations.

Carlos
Carlos
11
Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

Post

Has it actually been confirmed that thes devices are on the cars?
I don't think it is a magnetic damper. Magnets currently do not generate a strong enough field to have a useful dampening effect. I just suspect this device could be effective as a damper at each wheel for ride height control due to the large mass of the armature and its gyroscopic affect. Coupled to a wheel by mech or hydra methods it could effect ride height over curbs and such. With the improved chassis construction, a car well under weight could use this as a form of strategically placed ballast. It could be a disguised, initial developement effort towards electrical storage for future eco-f1. Theres many levels to consider. I'm surprised they all just don't wear the "masks of Zorro" or admit that James Bonds "M" is responsible. Perhaps it's just making a paycheck for a journalist or a few backroom techboys :wink:

Edit Dec 29th : On a serious note ; the device resembles an electric motor or generator. I have seen a simple electronics modification for an electric moped that introduced electrical battery regeneration. I would also like to say my flippant remarks, on this thread and every thread I contribute to, is mean't as humour or satire. I will not disparage the opinions of others on f1technical.

Every idea and opinion of all is important to discussion and my education.

RH1300S
RH1300S
1
Joined: 06 Jun 2005, 15:29

Post

Ferrari used rotary dampers, to me that looks a little like a viscous coupling diff.

Maybe the damper works on the same principle, with VC fluid - I believe you can vary the properties of the fluid with electro-magnetic fields.

manchild
manchild
12
Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

Post

RH1300S wrote:I believe you can vary the properties of the fluid with electro-magnetic fields.
That is banned by FIA regulations but since it is on Ferrari than it might be found legal by FIA.

RH1300S
RH1300S
1
Joined: 06 Jun 2005, 15:29

Post

Can anyone translate the Italian? Surely the answer is there. Perhaps the red/blue in the graphic is depicting heat rejection :D

User avatar
tomislavp4
0
Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 17:07
Location: Sweden & The Republic of Macedonia

Post

I´m not shure what does "depicting heat rejection" means but I´m allmost 100% sure that the red/blue things are the magnetic fields +/- (like in a electromotor)

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
34
Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Post

I'm 100% it is some form of rotary damper. It appears to have magnets, and they and/or a fluid could provide the damping force. If there is a combination of both, and if the magnetic field around the outside could be varied, the damper's characteristics could be altered. On-the-fly suspension tuning.. hmm. Presently illegal, but a very nice technology that may be allowed in the near future.

furnik28
furnik28
0
Joined: 04 Dec 2004, 00:39
Location: australia

Post

i goolge translated it

The rotary shocks-absorber of the Ferrari the innovationes of the Red one in sight of the GP of China
rok

User avatar
Ray
2
Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
Location: Atlanta

Post

Hey RH1300S if you ever need a web page translated go to http://babelfish.altavista.com/

That page will translate any web page or phrase. As long as you know what starting language you are using. If anyone doesn't know what a babelfish is, read the Hitchhikers Guide to the Universe. Pretty good book.

Reca
Reca
93
Joined: 21 Dec 2003, 18:22
Location: Monza, Italy

Post

We already had a thread about this some months ago, it was called “legal mass damper” or something like that, because the same man, Fabiano Vandone wrote an article on Autosprint describing the same system and was then reported by Spanish press as sort of mass damper.
In that thread I also expressed my opinion about Vandone and his technical explanations, IMHO he has quite little credibility and nothing changed my opinion since then, actually the less I say about him the better...
Strangely (or maybe not…) after the article about the MR dampers I didn’t see further articles by him on Autosprint.

Anyway, that said, few weeks after we had that discussion I remembered one thing that possibly could relate with it.
Several months ago, talking about April more or less, I read an article on Sportautomoto describing the straight line tests that Ferrari does at Vairano (test track of the magazine Quattroruote, not distant from Milano and having a 2 km long straight line), and the rumour was that they use a particular car for that kind of tests, purposely equipped with a system, hydraulic IIRC, to regulate ride height. The purpose being to allow consecutive constant speed passages, each one with different ride height, without having to stop every time to modify it mechanically, hence allowing a conspicuous time saving. Basically the same concept used in windtunnels where the attitude of the model can be changed with electric motors operating on the support without need to modify it manually. The article also specified that it was a system used for that kind of testing only and would be illegal for the races.

It’s possible that Vandone heard that rumour too and, adding the fact that the new Ferrari 599 uses a MR damper technology, made up his own particular explanation in an attempt to make the big scoop. Until a more reliable source confirms that Ferrari does indeed use them honestly that’s my take of the situation.
RH1300S wrote: Can anyone translate the Italian?
Basically it’s what Dave already said, anyway here the transcript and the translation:
La struttura interna dell’ammortizzatore rotante prevede un pacco di lamelle equidistanti fissate allo stelo con conformazione e foratura differente. Ai poli opposti una serie di magneti avvolgono l’intera struttura rotante che è immersa in un liquido reologico in condizioni normali la resistenza offerta dal fluido è bassa e quindi la libertà di movimento in rotazione è ampia ma in presenza di un campo elettrico sui magneti il liquido reagisce aumentando la viscosità, si riduce la corsa dell’ammortizzatore e cresce la rigidità ma senza perdere una buona progressione di funzionamento.

The internal structure of the rotating damper consists in a pack of discs equally spaced fixed to the shaft having various shape and holes. At the opposite sides a series of magnets are wrapped around the whole rotating structure that is submerged in a reological (not sure about correct spelling in English) fluid. In normal condition the resistance offered by the fluid is low hence freedom of movement is large, but in presence of an electrical field on the magnets the liquid reacts increasing the viscosity, possible rotation is reduced and rigidity is increased but without losing good progression during the operation.

zac510
zac510
22
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 12:58

Post

Just made me think Reca, the magnets could move the alignment of the discs rather than changing the viscosity of the fluid.

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
34
Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Post

It's a good observation zac, but it would take much less electrical energy to modify the damping characteristics by passing a magnetic field through the fluid, rather than trying to use magnetism to retard the movement.

zac510
zac510
22
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 12:58

Post

Good point Dave!
I'd like to know how quickly this magnetic fluid can respond to the magnetic energy. In a road car the time is not of paramount importance but in the specific way by which the Ferrari F1 system has been described by these journalists it would need to respond in very few hundreds or even thousandths of a second.