Slicks - Grooved tyre question.

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callmekart
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Slicks - Grooved tyre question.

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Do Slicks really have a significant impact on 2009? Here is what makes me think -

1. Would the grip levels of the Slicks of 2009 be similar to Grooved of 2008 after abt 15 laps into the race? Considering the grooves get smoothened/depleted as the tyre lays more rubber into the track over time.

2. Is there any possibility of the grooved tyres advantageous over the slicks.
a. Something like the grooved tyres provide more grip while moving laterally on a track. Whereas a slick tyre would lose more grip while moving laterally.
b. Grooved tyres are less influenced by dirt(dirt on the dirty side of the track or dirt gained through off track moments) than slick tyres.
c. Aerodynamic influence - Grooves produce a more inline air stream to the rear.

So i suspect a great decline in lap times from 2008 to 2009.
Last edited by callmekart on 12 Dec 2008, 12:46, edited 1 time in total.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Slicks - Grooved tyre question.

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The biggest factor is the wider contact patch. This brings better traction and more grip helping to increase cornering speeds in slow corners where no aero downforce is helping.

The other thing is the mechanical stability of a wide contact patch. Small rings of rubber experience a lot more deformation making for unstable friction conditions. Drivers have always complained about the knife edge feeling of grooved tyres.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

xpensive
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Re: Slicks - Grooved tyre question.

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Interesting issue this, however somewhat embarassing to my mind, as I belong to those convinced that the introduction of the grooves in 1998 had never taken place if Max had consulted some F1 designers. But the aim was clear, to reduce cornering speed, which it initially did.

I think most people would agree that reducing mechanical grip, while leaving room for development of aerodynamic such, was not the way to go to make passing any easier.

Besides, they look terrible, another reason to be glad to see them back.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Slicks - Grooved tyre question.

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xpensive wrote:Interesting issue this, however somewhat embarassing to my mind, as I belong to those convinced that the introduction of the grooves in 1998 had never taken place if Max had consulted some F1 designers. But the aim was clear, to reduce cornering speed, which it initially did.
The rule was proposed by tyre companies. The FiA took the advise because they wanted to compensate for rapidly increasing tyre performance. I don't think that team designers had any advise on offer regarding that issue. Of course with hindsight everybody is the master of prediction.

from JANUARY 6, 1997 BY PETER WRIGHT
http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft00253.html
Back in 1995, as the new 3 litre, stepped "flat" bottom cars settled down, it quickly became apparent that it would not be long before they were about as quick as the old 3.5 litre, true flat bottom cars. As well as the need to prevent cornering speed escalating again to levels that created circuit safety problems, two further issues raised their heads: drivers were finding it increasingly hard to overtake; and nearly all the great, 4th gear corners had gone, replaced with 2nd gear, stop-go bends, to the chagrin of spectators and drivers alike. Max Mosley tasked the Formula 1 Technical Working Group with making proposals for a means of regulating, and if necessary reducing, all aspects of performance to a level that cancelled out performance gains due to normal development. At the same time, research was to be carried out into ways of improving overtaking, particularly enabling drivers to race their cars close to each other without loss of aerodynamic stability. The Group members (Technical Directors and Chief Designers of all the teams) were given the opportunity to avoid scrapping all their R&D and design work every few years, as had often been the case in the past, and suggesting a means of regulating performance by adjusting some "low cost" feature of the car.

The main culprit in preventing overtaking was the aerodynamics. Powerful front wings, coupled with sensitive flat bottoms, were causing such a change in downforce and aerodynamic balance in the wake of another car, that drivers did not dare get up close in corners for fear of understeering off the track. A significant reduction in front wing and overall downforce was thought to be the answer. 40% model tests of two cars, one behind the other, in the Imperial College's wind tunnel proved otherwise - it's not that easy!

The focus shifted to the tyres. They had been narrowed from 18 ins to 15 ins for 1993 and, quite apart from the cost of new moulds that have to be born by the tyre companies (at least two suppliers in 1998), any further narrowing would put top speeds up above the 340 kph being attained at Hockenheim. Reducing the contact patch area, without reducing the size of the tyres, seemed a possible solution and so discussions were opened with both Goodyear and Bridgestone. Neither were totally negative and the constructors were interested. Putting circumferential grooves in the tread provides a relatively easy way of regulating grip, when or if further reductions in grip are needed in the future. Eventually, tread area will have reduced to a level where compounds have to become harder to last adequately, in spite of tyre competition, and perhaps the dreaded tyre "marbles" that generate a single racing line will disappear and we will return to the days when tyres wore to rubber dust.
You see that F1 was a constant struggle to keep performance in a safe bracket and the tyre war wasn't helping that issue. The article says that the constructors initially showed interest which confirms that consultations were conducted.

Over many years there have been a lot more instances that the constructors did not rely on consultations than the FiA.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

xpensive
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Re: Slicks - Grooved tyre question.

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Fact remains, that a radical reduction of downforce would have been far more efficient in reducing cornering speeds, I clearly remember Patrick Head making that remark from the beginning, along with a plausible technical explanation of course.
Without the need of any hindsight whatsoever.

And if keeping straight-line speed in check was one of the objectives, why reduce the track-width of the car in the first place? At about the same time, CART introduced an ingenious rear wing design to reduce oval-track speed.

But way too simple and inexpensive for F1 of course.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Slicks - Grooved tyre question.

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I would like to see the quote by Mr. Head. Fact of the matter is that all teams were fighting like hell to prevent aerodynamic changes and the FiA never had the means to develop their own research until AMD did some CFD for them in 2006 and came up with the CDG wing. In order to prevent this the teams founded the OWG. Such means were not available in 1997 and the Concord prevented sensible decision making. One thing that has changed to the better is the majority voting we now have for long term issues. You can change things in a sensible way if you do it early enough.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

xpensive
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Re: Slicks - Grooved tyre question.

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He said something to the effect that one of the first things you learn when you study mechanical engineering, is that Friction force is Contact force times a friction coefficient, where the contact area has very little to do with it.

This is however not a totaly accurate anology, as said coefficient is not constant with the contact pressure, something which I am certain any trained engineer knows.
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Slicks - Grooved tyre question.

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Racing tyres have nothing to do with dry friction. The model simply doesn't apply.

There are adhesive forces involved that can pull up a track surface like pulling teeth. Remember Canada?
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Jersey Tom
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Re: Slicks - Grooved tyre question.

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WhiteBlue wrote:The model simply doesn't apply.

There are adhesive forces involved that can pull up a track surface like pulling teeth. Remember Canada?
Adhesion is just 1 component of 3.

But you're right in that a PURELY dry friction model doesn't apply.

But to get back to the OP. I can't think of much off the top of my head where a grooved tire would be better than a slick. Slick will have SOME increase in grip level (not as dramatic as some people might lead you to believe), increase in handling response, and wear a bit better.

Don't know if I buy the "streamlined air" argument for grooved tires either.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

xpensive
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Re: Slicks - Grooved tyre question.

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Dumb indeed JT, but that's what you often get in here, categorical statements or opinions with very little engineering substance to back it up.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

xpensive
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Re: Slicks - Grooved tyre question.

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Thank's for the advise, I trust that you share this with the others invilved in that particular discussion. However, after only a couple of weeks here I am in a way dissappointed with the technical lavel, which indeed often is limited to pointless opinions, without any technical backing whatsoever.

I have tried several times to start threads with an analythical/engineering foundation, but what I get is mostly "Me thinks" or "Let me tell you how it is" responses.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Jersey Tom
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Re: Slicks - Grooved tyre question.

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Bear in mind X, most members of this forum are not engineers, or engineers involved in race. Just technical enthusiasts.

There is a lot of "general".. "technical" knowledge that floats around. Some of it is accurate, the majority are just old wives tales. There are even some of the latter that might be accurate in some cases!

If just suppose I did happen to have accurate, relevant, eye-opening race chassis or tire data and that's what I did for work.. all of it would be confidential, and most of it would be well beyond a casual forum post in technical depth.

So yea. It is what it is. Kinda sucks. But what can ya do.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

xpensive
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Re: Slicks - Grooved tyre question.

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Thanx JT, those "wives tales" can be somewhat frustrating however, just like obvious "copy'n paste" postings.

Anyway, while you mentioned three different components regarding tyre-friction, care to elaborate?
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Slicks - Grooved tyre question.

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I have given you a source (Peter Wright) who witnessed the introduction of grooved tyres and covered it in January 1997. Mr. Write testifies in his article on GP.com on the reasons of the FiA for introducing grooved tyres. He reports that F1 engineers were consulted contrary to your stipulation.

My comment regarding an appropriate model for tyre friction makes at least an attempt at applying engineering methodology to the issue of grooved vs slick tyres. The first step in an engineering or physics analysis must be the discussion of an appropriate model descibing the issue.

JT agreed so far that a simple dry friction model doesn't apply. So we have at least a mixture of dry friction and adhesive friction.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Ogami musashi
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Re: Slicks - Grooved tyre question.

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xpensive wrote:
And if keeping straight-line speed in check was one of the objectives, why reduce the track-width of the car in the first place? At about the same time, CART introduced an ingenious rear wing design to reduce oval-track speed.
Simply because the handford device made the wake horrible and prevented CART cars to overtake even on ovals.

Things are not that simple. Massive reduction in downforce would have limited cornering speeds you're perfectly right, but keeping cornering speeds to a decent levels would have meant keeping a certain level of downforce as it is impossible to have tyres producing the same grip, and then reduced downforce means worst wake and more sensitive cars.

And written in WB article from grandprix, the wind tunnel studies were showing already that reduction in downforce was not the solution for better overtaking so safety and spectacle often contradict.

Limiting tyre's grip is easier as it changes nothing to the wake problem. Now i'll agree this was not a good solution as downforce is still materialzed as grip by the tyres so limiting tyres grip always make things more difficult and in slow corners make things even more difficult because of absence of downforce there.

A cart engineer, once said that for years he was convinced that downforce was the devil and that mechanical grip was what counted, but after taking part to studies done on spectacle AND driving (everybody always forget about driving style..often speaking of overtaking...who knows about F1 driving style??) that what was required according to him was a fine balance of tyre grip and downforce.
Dowforce for high speed corners, and mechanical grip for the rest.