Can KERS fire the engine?

[dp35]

If a KERS equiped car spun and killed its engine, it might be able to get going again using its KERS power to refire its engine, and continue racing. I'm not sure if this would actually work, but I'd be willing to bet they're trying to make it possible.

Anyone know if any of the F1 KERS systems have been used in this way yet?

Another potential KERS advantage - reverse. A car with KERS could use that power source to run the car in reverse, and thus might be able to completely eliminate the reverse gear in its transmission. This would save weight and size in an aero critical area.

[modbaraban]

Not sure about the first part of your quistion, but the presence of the reverse gear is mandated by the technical regulations.

[Scania]

I think it can....
because F1 can push to start, if the KERS can't fire the engine directly, it still can push the car move so it still can start the engine

[DaveKillens]

Well, all the basic parts are in place, a power source, switching gear, and an electric motor connected to the engine. But for me, the problem is that all of these named components are optimized for a very specific application. It is to power a high RPM motor with a fixed power input. So to ask such a motor to deliver low RPM and high torque is asking maybe too much.
It is probably possible to design in a start feature, but not without a major rework. But then again, where does that relegate the anti-stall program? My belief is that if such a start was attempted, the motor and possibly other components would suffer terminal overheating.
And for a team, evwerything is balancing risk versus reward. Just exactly is the risk of a car having it's engine die after an "incident"? How many times in the recent past have we seen such a scenario? Is it worth the money and resources to design in such a system that most likely will never be used? Or if ever, on a very infrequent basis.

[Ian P.]

The use of KERs as a self-starter has been proposed previously.
In the case of the Red-Bull system and likely many other of the electrical KERs systems, it should be only a soft-ware change to turn the engine over with the electric power unit while the clutch is disengaged. It doesn't take much power or torque to crank over an engine compared to the available output of the KERs drive system.
My bet....all the teams will have it available. The pieces are there and it won't take much to make it work. I think the rules only state that the KERs can NOT be charged up unless the car is moving. Nothing about dischargeing the system at a stop.
Max will like it because the team can eliminate one or two guys in the pit-stop crew.

[ISLAMATRON]

bump start it like push starting a manual shift car.

[ESPImperium]

I feel that the presence of a electric starter on a F1 car is just a matter of time away.

Would be a great thing to save time in the pits when a car stalls.

[alelanza]

If properly implemented it could even replace or partially allow the driver to turn off the anti stall system when needed. I recall Brundle stating in 07 how hard/impossible it was to try and get a modern F1 car out of a sand trap, and he said it had to do with the anti stall mechanism not allowing the finesse required to play with the clutch/accel in such a way not to dig yourself in deeper. He reckoned with earlier cars it wasn't as difficult. Probably that was when he was driving the cars for the 50 years of silverstone itv feature.

[riff_raff]

Getting an F1 car moving from a standstill is actually very difficult, due to the very aggressive friction characteristics of the CRC clutches used and the low rotational MOI of the engines. The CRC clutch discs have almost no slip. They grab instantly when released and are almost like an "on-off" switch. Doing a standing start is made even more difficult by the fact that the rotating mass of the engine has a very low polar MOI, so has very little stored energy and rapidly decelerates when loaded. That is why you commonly see even skilled F1 drivers routinely stall their cars.

There is plenty of potential energy in any KERS system to bump start a (lightweight) stalled F1 car. But the trick is being able to modulate the KERS power delivery in a usable manner. The KERS systems are probably designed to transmit power back to the drivetrain at a fairly low rate. Much lower than a standing start would require anyway. I suspect it would be much easier to do with a purely electrical system. But it would seem to me to be very difficult with the flywheel and traction CVT systems proposed. The CVT variator would easily have its traction capability exceeded at the power transfer conditions required at start-up, resulting in a catastrophic scoring failure of the discs and toroids.

Very interesting question though.

[pitlaneimmigrant]

This partly depends on how the KERS system is configured. If the motor unit is attached directly to the engine as opposed to the gearbox then there is no physical reason that the KERS system couldn't be used to start the car.

From the software side of things, using KERS to restart the engine has certainly been considered but I'm not sure whether anyone has tried this at a test or whether the current software release has this functionality enabled.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that with the Anti-Stall systems in F1 cars it is quite difficult to stall the engine, when a low engine speed is detected the car automatically declutches to prevent a stall. It's not impossible, just a lot harder than it was a few years ago.

[wesley123]

ow, i havent ever thought about that and it would be good in its feauture to, using kers to fire/refire the engine and as reverse, in that way it would be used good.

I dont even know why f1 cars got a reverse as i never ever have seen a f1 car driving in reverse.

[pitlaneimmigrant]

I dont even know why f1 cars got a reverse as i never ever have seen a f1 car driving in reverse.

Aside from being in the regulations, I have seen it used both during testing and during race weekends. It's no like you'll be backing into the garage but it can get you out of the #### after a spin or an overshoot.

[ISLAMATRON]

I dont even know why f1 cars got a reverse as i never ever have seen a f1 car driving in reverse.

Aside from being in the regulations, I have seen it used both during testing and during race weekends. It's no like you'll be backing into the garage but it can get you out of the #### after a spin or an overshoot.

I seen alot of cars use reverse at Monaco, going into turn 1 or out of the tunnel and overshooting the nouvelle chicane.

[riff_raff]

The F1 regulations are not really clear about using KERS to start the engine. Section 9.8 states only that the KERS must "connect at any point in the rear wheel drive train". I would assume that to mean the KERS cannot connect directly to the engine, but it still would be able to bump start a car in gear or drive a car in reverse direction.

[ISLAMATRON]

The F1 regulations are not really clear about using KERS to start the engine. Section 9.8 states only that the KERS must "connect at any point in the rear wheel drive train". I would assume that to mean the KERS cannot connect directly to the engine, but it still would be able to bump start a car in gear or drive a car in reverse direction.

But most of the teams are doing just that, connecting it to the front of the crankshaft.