Edwards' Talladega Crash

[tk421]

Just wondering if anyone saw the Keselowski/Edwards crash at Talladega on the last corner of the last lap over the weekend, and what your thoughts might be. The double-blocking move is banned in F1--not certain if it's allowed in NASCAR, but I think it was Edwards' fault cause he blocked high then Keselowski went low, got up to Edwards' rear quarter panel, and Edwards tried to block low (double-block) and hit Keselowski, thus causing the crash...
There is also the safety concern when a car gets up in the fence like the 99 did. I guess the simple solutions are raise the wall another few feet, strengthen the catch fences, and move the front rows back 20 or 30 feet...I'm no expert, but just wondering if anyone else had thoughts on the crash....

[Ray]

I think it was a really bad crash. That's racing though. They need to remove the restrictor plates, remove the first 10-15 rows, and let them at it. That will solve alot of your problems of the cars being bunched up and having those big wrecks. But what happened between Edwards and Keselowski was just plain good old racing. There is nothing wrong with the moves Edwards made either. He simply didn't know Keselowski had just a little of his nose alongside.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9FsYDEI ... re=related[/youtube]

[Giblet]

I guess since the fence did such a good job, they don't feel like they need marshals?

In F1, on a longer track, with more area to cover, there is almost always a marshal there to assist the driver getting out of the car, and of course, to put the fire out.

I think it's kind of sad that the driver had time to sit in the car, climb out, and run ~100 feet to the finish. Car still burning. No marshal.

[Ray]

I guess since the fence did such a good job, they don't feel like they need marshals?

In F1, on a longer track, with more area to cover, there is almost always a marshal there to assist the driver getting out of the car, and of course, to put the fire out.

I think it's kind of sad that the driver had time to sit in the car, climb out, and run ~100 feet to the finish. Car still burning. No marshal.

It's normal for a driver to decide when he wants to get out of the car. He was in no danger at any point after the crash from catching fire. What fire there was came from the fuel in the lines that were attached to the carb before it came off. And I don't know if you've seen the seats inside those cars, but it would be damn near impossible for a track official to help a driver get out of the car. It would be pointless. His window net was dropped to let them know he was okay. I see absolutely no cause for concern about the reaction time of the track officials. They knew he was okay from him dropping his window net, the car wasn't in danger of catching fire and he waved off the officials when he ran to the finish line. F1 isn't superior no matter how much you wish it to be. There have been countless times marshals have screwed up their duties.

[Fil]

Edwards knew exactly what he was doing. Drivers have constant radio contact from their spotters. He was pushing Keselowski down to force him to overtake below the inside yellow line, which would disqualify him like Regan Smith was in 2008.

Keselowski was left with 2 options, lift and lose, or overtake under the yellow line and be disqualified.
Brad took the 3rd option, hold his inside line and let Edwards hit him. the rest we know.

[Ray]

And Edwards took all the blame for what happened.

[Giblet]

I guess since the fence did such a good job, they don't feel like they need marshals?

In F1, on a longer track, with more area to cover, there is almost always a marshal there to assist the driver getting out of the car, and of course, to put the fire out.

I think it's kind of sad that the driver had time to sit in the car, climb out, and run ~100 feet to the finish. Car still burning. No marshal.

It's normal for a driver to decide when he wants to get out of the car. He was in no danger at any point after the crash from catching fire. What fire there was came from the fuel in the lines that were attached to the carb before it came off. And I don't know if you've seen the seats inside those cars, but it would be damn near impossible for a track official to help a driver get out of the car. It would be pointless. His window net was dropped to let them know he was okay. I see absolutely no cause for concern about the reaction time of the track officials. They knew he was okay from him dropping his window net, the car wasn't in danger of catching fire and he waved off the officials when he ran to the finish line. F1 isn't superior no matter how much you wish it to be. There have been countless times marshals have screwed up their duties.

I just think a man with a fire extinguisher, at the very least, should be able to be at the car with a fire extinguisher as soon as there is a crash. F1 drivers are constantly pulling their arms away when they don't want help, but in the end, the worker is there.

It's not that he got out himself, which is fine, I just found the lack of marshals disheartening.

I'm sure Niki Lauda would agree that sitting in a burning car where there is no help kind of sucks. If the driver in the NASCAR race was unconscious and unable to get himself out, would someone have gotten there faster?

Do they judge by the incident? Am I being too harsh?

[Ray]

I just think a man with a fire extinguisher, at the very least, should be able to be at the car with a fire extinguisher as soon as there is a crash. F1 drivers are constantly pulling their arms away when they don't want help, but in the end, the worker is there.

It's not that he got out himself, which is fine, I just found the lack of marshals disheartening.

I'm sure Niki Lauda would agree that sitting in a burning car where there is no help kind of sucks. If the driver in the NASCAR race was unconscious and unable to get himself out, would someone have gotten there faster?

Do they judge by the incident? Am I being too harsh?

I don't think you are being harsh at all. It's a very valid concern. You have to take into account that the race was not over. Edwards crashed right down from the flagstand and there were cars still coming to the finsh. Slowed down of course, but there were still cars on the track at some sort of speed.

The fire wasn't bad enough to really endanger the officials by hurrying onto the track. They saw his car was on fire but it was all from fuel left over from the carb being ripped off the engine. It wasn't that big anyway, the camera angle skews that. When a driver in NASCAR drops his window net it lets the emergency crews know he is fine and moving under his own power. They really had no cause for concern, hence no reason to get out there quickly while there were still cars moving at relatively high speeds coming head on to them.

Comparing Laudas' crash with a fire to this one is a massive stretch. The very reason we have safety systems today is because of wrecks like that. Had Carls' car been engulfed like Laudas', you bet your ass they would have been there before he even got the window net down. They do judge by incident. There was no need for them to risk getting hit by a racecar just to get to him 10 seconds sooner.

You have to look at the whole incident and not just what happened to Edwards. There were still cars on track coming at them head-on, he was getting out of the car under his own power, and the fire was moderate at the worst. It was a judgement call and I think it was a good one.

[Fil]

problem is the speeds they are dealing with and the close proximity.

directly after his crash, at least 4 other cars raced by at full speed near the crashed car. how are marshals meant to get to the car when cars are trying to avoid the track where the accident has just occurred?

[Giblet]

Yeah...

after watching the YouTube link you posted a second time, I see how much distance there is from the wall to the apron, and the need to have the fans in such close proximity to the track, is what can make these super speedways inherently dangerous.

After some more thought, I guess that majority of wrecks tend to move down to the apron/infield anyways because of the banking.

That accident was an extraordinary set of circumstances.

I am impressed by that fencing however. It stopped a freakin' airborne CAR.

If that fencing was at the Molson Indy in Toronto in 1996 we would still have driver Jeff Krosnoff and corner worker Gary Avrin with us today.

@Ray - WTH is going on in your avatar?

[modbaraban]

On a side note... How on earth a car with bloody spec aero is unsafe enough to go airborne during a trivial spin?! Note: the car took off before the second black Chevy hit it. (video @ 1:22)

[zoic]

On a side note... How on earth a car with bloody spec aero is unsafe enough to go airborne during a trivial spin?! Note: the car took off before the second black Chevy hit it. (video @ 1:22)

I wouldn't call a spin at 200mph a trivial spin.

It actually looked like it was going down before Newman hit him, which made it catch more air and start flying.

[DaveKillens]

This is typical NASCAR. Somehow, many fans love this kind of racing held at Daytona and Talladega. I'm not going to argue whether this format is real racing or manufactured excitement, just that it goes on.
But this kind of accident has happened before. For instance ..... at Daytona in 2000.

DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. (AP) -- A terrifying crash at the first-ever truck race at Daytona sent flames and debris into the grandstand Friday, injuring nine fans and two drivers.
Geoffrey Bodine's truck slammed into the wall near the finish line at about 190 mph and cartwheeled wildly down the track in flames midway through the Daytona 250.
The crash on the 57th of 100 laps caused the fifth caution of the race. The accident and earlier crashes took out about half of 36 starters.
The second half was run without any crashes. Mike Wallace won with a thrilling last-lap pass of Andy Houston. The race was extremely competitive with a series-record 31 lead changes among 12 drivers.
But it was hard to shake the image of the crash, which involved 13 trucks and ripped off part of the safety fence about 10 feet in front of the first row of the stands. Fans scrambled for cover as debris and a ball of fire hurtled toward them.
It was just a huge fireball.
Everybody in the press room and in the stands let out a huge gasp when it happened. We were just watching the trucks go by and saw a huge cloud of smoke -- and then the fireball. The truck was really bad, and it took the press about 10 minutes to identify whose truck it was, because the truck was so badly damaged.
By the time I arrived at the side of the track, Geoffrey Bodine had been carried off. I saw the emergency personnel load the roll cage -- all that was left of the truck -- onto a flatbed and haul it away. The chain-link fence was chewed away by the truck. The engine was in the infield grass. Just laying there.
-- Ryan Smithson, CNNSI.com Motor Sports Producer
Bodine, the 1986 Daytona 500 champion who failed to qualify for Sunday's race, broke an ankle and an arm and suffered a laceration to his face, track spokesman Glyn Johnston said. Bodine was taken to the Halifax Medical Center along with driver Jimmy Kitchens, who was not seriously hurt.
"I have never had a wreck like that in my life," Bodine said from the hospital. "I was fully aware of the trouble on the inside of me. I saw that that they were coming up into me, and then I just went on a wild ride.
"My concerns are with the fans who were injured, and I wish them all the best. I want to thank everyone for their support, and I want them to know that I will be fine."
Five fans were treated at the hospital for injuries that included a broken arm, cuts and bruises, and a minor head injury. Four other fans were treated for minor injuries at the track's care center and released. None of the fans was burned.





As long as NASCAR has this kind of racing, this kind of crap will happen. That's what happens when you have cars bumping and banging each other at almost 200 MPH, for hundreds of miles. It is inevitable that huge accidents will happen, and they do regularly. Anyone even remotely familiar with NASCAR is aware of the term "the big one". Happens just about every time there's a restrictor race, we're just fortunate it usually isn't so dramatic or involve anyone being seriously injured.

As a footnote, one of my driver heroes, Dale Earnhardt, was killed in a restrictor race. In NASCAR he was held in awe in the same manner as Ayrton Senna was in Formula One.

[modbaraban]

On a side note... How on earth a car with bloody spec aero is unsafe enough to go airborne during a trivial spin?! Note: the car took off before the second black Chevy hit it. (video @ 1:22)

I wouldn't call a spin at 200mph a trivial spin.

Why? Maybe not trivial for F1 but for oval racing that's usual speed at which most crashes happen.

[Ray]

On a side note... How on earth a car with bloody spec aero is unsafe enough to go airborne during a trivial spin?! Note: the car took off before the second black Chevy hit it. (video @ 1:22)

I wouldn't call a spin at 200mph a trivial spin.

Why? Maybe not trivial for F1 but for oval racing that's usual speed at which most crashes happen.

Because you make downforce going forward and massive lift going backward. Doing anything other than driving straight at 200mph isn't trivial. Note that Carls' car was coming back down to the track due to the roof flaps doing exactly what they were designed for. You have to remember these cars weigh in excess of 3000lbs, so the forces involved are far from trivial. Spec aero bodies have absolutely nothing to do with what happened. These cars don't make as much downforce as you think, and they ride on skinny ass tires. A car mag did a skid pad test and were amazed the car generated what it did despite the woeful lack of tire they had to use. These cars are on the limit all the time and NASCAR seems to think taking away downforce and grip will solve the problems they have. Just like F1.

The sole reason he went into the fence is Newman hit him before the wheels got back to the racetrack and it turned him back into the air and then there was nothing to would have prevented him from flipping. All the media is flipping out, like they always do (swine flu ), and making something out of nothing or creating mass hysteria. They aren't looking at all the factors that contributed in this happening. The measures that were taken, roof flaps, worked beautifully until that little thing called chance intervened. You can't prevent every possible scenario from happening. And 'the big one' situation doesn't really apply here, though they were nose to tail racing one another. This restrictor plate bullshit has got to go away or, like Carl Edwards said, they won't do anything about it until someone is killed.

Sh*t happens. You can't get rid of every risk, the drivers know that and so should the fans.