Lifting body in F1

[Ciro Pabón]

I was reading about the ISS, which took me to the Kliper project (a lifting body spaceship).

Kliper: will replace the venerable and reliable Soyuz spaceship


I read that the Kliper is based on the Hermes project (an european lifting body spaceship) and this, in turn, was based on the Dyna-soar project of the 60's.

Dyna-soar: the uncle of the Space Shuttle


Then I find that the Dyna-soar was based on the Silbervogel (silver bird) project by the world famous Eugene Sanger and Irene Bredt. They are world famous (at least to me... ) because they built the first regenerative cooling engine, so sometimes it is called the Sanger-Bredt engine (actually it was invented by Siemens, but you know how inventors are repaid).

Silbervogel: an intercontinental bomber, grandfather of the Shuttle


All those crafts use a lifting body, that is (duh!) a body designed to create lift, an invention (patented) by Vincent Burnelli, btw.

So, the question is: does a modern F1 car has a lifting body?

Of course, I imagine a "ducking body", not a lifting one, but in principle...

If it is so, how much of the downforce is created by it?

If it's not, could it be used, maybe at low speed tracks, as the drag, I imagine, would be large? However, given that current regulations forbid winglets, it could be an option.

The bottom of this lifting-body aircraft, called the M2-F2, seems (to me!) very similar to the nose of an F1 car (inverted, of course), but the flat top doesn't.


NOTE for Green Power Dude Reload: here you have the Facetmobile (a mixture of lifting body and a flying wing), it's made of flat panels.

[flynfrog]

if you think about it the ground effect cars were approaching this. The tunnels kept getting bigger and bigger one could take this out toe ht whole car was a tunnel

[Giblet]

Also for interesting reading, along the lines of a shape that looks like it should be useless, being quite efficient.

The humble Boxfish for your amusement:



Boxfish

[syguy]

The humble Boxfish for your amusement

...which inspired Daimler-Chrysler to come up the Bionic concept car: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/06 ... rysler.php

[BreezyRacer]

In essence the body lift concept/design is flat paneled and aligned approximately with the airflow because that allows the air to move fastest over that kind of surface. Therefore any curvature on the opposing surface results, generally, in a lift on the flat surface. The curvature slows the airflow. Think about that.

Now envision the bottom of the modern F1 car .. see they ARE using it, just not like you seem to be thinking. BTW, it's interesting to look back at all those flat topped F1 cars of the late 80's and early 90's. They didn't know it at the time but they were generating lift with the body panels. Obviously they've all learned that lesson.

[BreezyRacer]

BTW, I would add that flat panel surfaces in general ,are extremely pitch sensitive. In general, not what you want, especially in flight.

[spacepig]

[Giblet]

BTW, I would add that flat panel surfaces in general ,are extremely pitch sensitive. In general, not what you want, especially in flight.

I think you mean that flat surfaces in flight, that are not controlled entirely by a computer that translates what the pilot is trying asking the plane to do, and doing it for him/her.

A glider, flat surfaces, BAD.

[BreezyRacer]

BTW, I would add that flat panel surfaces in general ,are extremely pitch sensitive. In general, not what you want, especially in flight.

I think you mean that flat surfaces in flight, that are not controlled entirely by a computer that translates what the pilot is trying asking the plane to do, and doing it for him/her.

A glider, flat surfaces, BAD.

Ahh, yes ... what he said. I knew that a Blackhawk pic would turn up when I made that statement. Factually though you can see a lot of crowning in the overall shape even though they use a series of flat panels ..

[Henning]

Also for interesting reading, along the lines of a shape that looks like it should be useless, being quite efficient.

The humble Boxfish for your amusement:



Boxfish

I notice the cross-sectional shape of the boxfish is rather similar to the cross-sectional shape of an F1 from the front suspension arms to the cockpit.

Also, notice the long humps along the top edges of the the boxfish; very similar to the lumps on the top edges of the Red Bull that other teams have been testing.

[Conceptual]

The boxfish has been under "heavy" wind tunnel testing for the last 8 million years...

I imagine the fluid dynamics are pretty well worked out by now...

Nature is where many aero shapes are coming from.

[ringo]

In essence the body lift concept/design is flat paneled and aligned approximately with the airflow because that allows the air to move fastest over that kind of surface. Therefore any curvature on the opposing surface results, generally, in a lift on the flat surface. The curvature slows the airflow. Think about that.

Now envision the bottom of the modern F1 car .. see they ARE using it, just not like you seem to be thinking. BTW, it's interesting to look back at all those flat topped F1 cars of the late 80's and early 90's. They didn't know it at the time but they were generating lift with the body panels. Obviously they've all learned that lesson.

Don't you have it the other way round?
curved surface accelerates flow, upping the speeding and lowering the pressure.
The flat top f1 cars of the 90s and 80s are following the right principle. Its because of rules and regulations why modern F1 has to suffice with a flat floor, which without being sandwiched to the ground,(ground effects) or a splitter in front would generate lift.

[Giblet]

An airfoil has a rounded top and flat-ish bottom. The air over the top moves faster then the air over the bottom, resulting in lower pressure, and lift.

Technically, the shape of an F1 car should generate lift, but the simple fact that there is less air moving under the car than over should nearly negate any lift. The other fact is that there is a big wing at the front and the back, which an airfoil doesn't have in profile, completely throwing everything in between the wings off.

[flynfrog]

angle of attack + thrust pretty much anything will create lift.

[wrcsti]

angle of attack + thrust pretty much anything will create lift.

That is 100% true. I fly rc planes and have seen some at airparks that defy every law of everything. Also in a hurricane when a stop sign flies off and keeps going.