Race in U.S.

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mkw111
mkw111
0
Joined: 01 Aug 2009, 07:02

Race in U.S.

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I have found a nice and acceptable race track where F1 could race in america.

It is located in Montery, California, U.S..

The track is 3.602 Km and has 11 turns.

Sebastien Bourdais set the lap record at 1:05.880.

This would be a nice race track for the drivers to race in U.S. and it could replace Monte Carlo race track.

Does any one else have an idea where F1 race should be held in the U.S.?

Dukeage
Dukeage
0
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 21:28

Re: Race in U.S.

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As you mentioned, CART lapped it in less than 70 seconds (too short), it's too narrow and it has facility issues. Laguna Seca is a total and utter non-starter. As for replacing Monaco, that would be removing one of the world's greatest sporting events.

If there is a US GP, a logical place I can think of would be a car park type circuit either in Las Vegas or LA.

dumrick
dumrick
0
Joined: 19 Jan 2004, 13:36
Location: Portugal

Re: Race in U.S.

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Somebody has "discovered" Laguna Seca? I'm from Portugal and I believe is one of the better-known racetracks in the world... :roll:

Shrek
Shrek
0
Joined: 05 Jun 2009, 02:11
Location: right here

Re: Race in U.S.

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Just the other day i discovered a dirt road course for ants in my back yard :D
Spencer

modbaraban
modbaraban
0
Joined: 05 Apr 2007, 17:44
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: Race in U.S.

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Shrek wrote:Just the other day i discovered a dirt road course for ants in my back yard :D
Maybe it can replace Monte Carlo race track?

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Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Race in U.S.

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Montecarlo cannot be replaced by Laguna Seca any more than Princess Stephanie can be replaced by the Prince of Belair. At most, they could complement each other to prove that:

a. tradition is a value in itself and

b. comedy gets more spectators than tragedy (frankly, I don't like Monaco that much, if you follow my drift: I agree with Dukeage in considering it an event, where racing gets a distant second place and bussiness is all over the first place).

On the other hand, I heartily agree with the concept of the US needing a venue. For example, the country with more visitors to F1 Technical is the US, followed by England, Australia and Canada, if I remember well the data. So, it's unexplainable to me why Bernie doesn't lend us a hand to keep visitors satisfied.

Going back in time, some people here (hey, oldies, raise your hands!) could remember that, in times of yore, when the 1988 US GP site was chosen, Phoenix won the deal over Laguna Seca. Some of the ancients, through trembling lips, with their raspy voices, might also say to you that "Phoenix wasn't exactly a success, son..." and they could add pesimistically: "... and, young man, take in account that the economy was in a better shape", before dying of a heart attack.

The truly pesimistic would mention that Laguna Seca is owned by Mazda ("... perhaps if Toyota went into it, kid"...).

Some jokers could add (hi, Shrek!) something about ant paths (I think ant paths are beautiful, but I'm kind of weird).

Now, I would not be myself if I were not adding my voice to that chorus of complainers: I respectfully think Laguna Seca looks wonderful in a simulator, but I assume the real thing is different. The track seems to have plenty Gs for you, if you use an F1 car optimized for racing and not merely to break last record in a demo.

The track has few curves because of its length, not to mention the horrible levels of downforce you need to dial in this track (or in Montecarlo, btw).

To nitpick even more, the current track record is 1:07:xx by Castroneves.

Zonta (in a Toyota F1) did 1:06:something and Bourdais did the 1:05 lap that mkw111 mentions (welcome to the forum, mkw!), but those were not official times as far as I know: you cannot set an official track record during an exhibition, you have to be racing.

Finally, allow me to disenchant many of you, if I still haven't:

Last time I checked (three years ago!) the list of FIA circuits in the United States was this one:

Category 1:
Indianapolis

Category 2:
Denver
Laguna Seca
Lime Rock
Miller Motorsports Park
Portland
San José
Sears Point
Sebring

Category 2 tracks cannot hold F1 races, so, for the moment, it's Bill France or nothing, recognizing I have no idea if Laguna Seca was improved to Category 1 between 2006 and 2009.

Improving a Category 2 track to Category 1 is not that simple: braking distances (and thus, safety areas requirements) increase to the square of the racing speed and the right hander after the Corkscrew has trees that are... what? 15 meters away from the track?

FYI, these are the kinds of cars that can use Cat. 1 tracks (so, it means Indy):

GRADE CATEGORIES OF CARS THAT CAN RACE IN CATEGORY 1 CIRCUITS
Cars Grade 1: Formula 1
Cars Grade 1T: Formula 1 testing
Cars Grade 2:
- Single seater racing cars of Groups D (FIA International Formula) and E (Free formula) with corrected cylinder capacities over 2500 cm³, excepting Formula 1 Sports Cars of Groups C and E including SR1, SR2, LMP1, LMP2 and those with corrected cylinder capacities over 2500 cm³
- FIA GT Championship
- Historic cars of Groups F1/4 (TGP and F1 of periods G, H, I), TSRC 17, 18, 29, 30, 41, 42, 47 and 48 (Two-seater Racing Cars, over 2000cc, of periods G and later) and all cars of Period Z excepting Group B and WRC

Now, at Sebring, Sears Point, Miller, Laguna Seca, Lime Rock, Portland, San José and Denver you can race in those cars:

GRADE CATEGORIES OF CARS THAT CAN RACE IN CATEGORY 2 CIRCUITS
Cars Grade 3:
- Single seater racing cars of Groups D and E with corrected cylinder capacities up to 2500 cm³ excepting cars in Grades 1 and 2 above
- Sports Cars of Groups C and E excepting cars in Grade 2 above
- Cars of Groups B, GT1, GT2 and similar cars of Group E, excepting cars in Grade 2 above
Cars Grade 4:
- Single seater racing cars of Groups D and E with corrected cylinder capacities up to 2000 cm³
- Sports Cars of Groups C and E with corrected cylinder capacities up to 2000 cm³ excepting cars in Grade 2 above
- Cars of Groups N, A and SP and similar cars of Group E
- Historic cars to Appendix K regulations not included in Grade 2 above
Cars Grade 5: Alternative Energy Vehicles

So, mkw111, I say: "no soup for you! Go back in line!". ;)
Ciro

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Race in U.S.

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I can't find Road America anywhere on those lists, Ciro? Only a few years ago they were racing CART there, didn't they?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

modbaraban
modbaraban
0
Joined: 05 Apr 2007, 17:44
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: Race in U.S.

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Ciro Pabón wrote:Improving a Category 2 track to Category 1 is not that simple: braking distances (and thus, safety areas requirements) increase to the square of the racing speed and the right hander after the Corkscrew has trees that are... what? 15 meters away from the track?
I'm still struggling to see how F1 cars are allowed to race at Monaco, Montreal, Valencia, Singapore and the like according to the above requirements. You can't have trees 15m away from the track but you can make a hairpin around a tree, albeit a good looking one.
Ciro Pabón wrote:the country with more visitors to F1 Technical is the US, followed by England, Australia and Canada, if I remember well the data.
Would you care to share that data with us when you have a free minute for that? It would be quite interesting to see the full list of countries with their % of the F1T-reading population of the globe. :)

lebesset
lebesset
7
Joined: 06 Aug 2008, 14:00

Re: Race in U.S.

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anybody who has ever been to laguna seca would have seen at a glance that it is a non starter even if , like me , they didn't see any racing ; great track for 2 wheels though imho

but the most important factor of all doesn't seem to be mentioned , where are the major centres of population ?

not everyone who goes to an F1 race is a rabid fan , wasting their time talking about it like we do :D ; how many come on corporate packages etc ...a lot asI know , having used this as a marketed tool

the USA is one of the worlds largest countries , with the population heavily concentrated on the two coasts...east more than west

so why not a new venue ? if places like turkey , singapore et al can find the money , why not the usa ? the mighty midget is correct , new york would be perfect ... maybe there is room in the flushing meadows park , site of 2 worlds fairs , tennis and baseball have already moved there , car parks etc are in place , airports a taxi ride ; maybe someone who knows the place better than me would like to comment on the possibility ...or suggest a more suitable site

never overlook the fact that F1 is , first and foremost , a business ; it will prosper only if the people who put the money into the 'sport' see a potential profit ...and the usa , I presume , is still the worlds largest car market

so no more debacles like turkey , if need be the owners of F1 should be prepared to invest in this circuit themselves ...otherwise the golden goose may well die of starvation
to the optimist a glass is half full ; to the pessimist a glass is half empty ; to the F1 engineer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be

xxChrisxx
xxChrisxx
44
Joined: 18 Sep 2009, 19:22

Re: Race in U.S.

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Ciro Pabón wrote: Going back in time, some people here (hey, oldies, raise your hands!) could remember that, in times of yore, when the 1988 US GP site was chosen, Phoenix won the deal over Laguna Seca. Some of the ancients, through trembling lips, with their raspy voices, might also say to you that "Phoenix wasn't exactly a success, son..." and they could add pesimistically: "... and, young man, take in account that the economy was in a better shape", before dying of a heart attack.
In 91 more people attended an ostrich race than the grand prix. about 18000. The Pheonix grand prix was a total mistake, it's the Valencia of the 80's.

The idea of a street circuit in the US is a bit odd, purely because all the major cities are essentailly grids.

It's a shame that its not up to scratch becuase I kind of like Watkins Glen.

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Race in U.S.

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modbaraban wrote:I'm still struggling to see how F1 cars are allowed to race at Monaco, Montreal, Valencia, Singapore and the like according to the above requirements. You can't have trees 15m away from the track but you can make a hairpin around a tree, albeit a good looking one.
Well, try to hit a tree at the inner part of a Tilke hairpin. The trees at Laguna are on the outside and there is sand between you and them.
modbaraban wrote:Would you care to share that data with us when you have a free minute for that? It would be quite interesting to see the full list of countries with their % of the F1T-reading population of the globe. :)
Modbaraban, I don't dare to post hosting stats, these are Tomba's own figures to share. I guess I can give you percentages (ask him if you're curious about actual hits):
1.	United States	21.9 %
2.	United Kingdom	19.9 %
3.	Australia	5.5 %
4.	Canada  	5.4 %
5.	Belgium 	2.7 %
6.	Spain   	2.5 %
7.	France  	2.5 %
8.	Germany 	2.4 %
9.	Netherlands	2.4 %
10.	India	 	2.4 %
 	The rest	32.4 %
Of course, The Rest means Kiyiv and Bogotá, mainly. ;)
xpensive wrote:I can't find Road America anywhere on those lists, Ciro? Only a few years ago they were racing CART there, didn't they?
Well, CART did whatever they wanted, as usual. You know, ACCUS is "an interface" between FIA and its "associated" members. Associated members are Grand-Am, IMSA, USAC, Champ Car, NASCAR, NHRA, SCCA, IRL, and WKA.

Now, in the Great and Noble American Language, the word "associated" means (I'm guessing a bit here, American idioms are devilishly complicated): "we pay you a fee for the looks, but then we do what we please because we damn well feel like it".

For example, NASCAR doesn't even publish its rules, so I have no idea how they pick their tracks, I'm familiar only with FIA track requiremets.

Behold in awe the FIA list of licensed US tracks, updated April 3, 2009. I posted only Grade 1 and 2 circuits, if somebody wants to know the Grade 3, 4, 5 and 6, you have to ask (only because it took me 30 minutes to format the list for 1 and 2 Grades). There are a few surprises in it for me (yes, xpensive, Road America is a Grade 2 track these days):
CIRCUIT NAME                   	COUNTRY	GRADE	LENGTH	POLE 	LICENCE EXPIRES	REFERENCE WIDTH
GRADE 1
AlbertPark                     	AUS	1	5.303	Left	31.1.10 	11
Bahrain                        	BH	1	5.412	Left	1.4.10  	13
BahrainPaddockCircuit          	BH	1	3.823	Left	1.4.10  	13
Catalunya                      	E	1	4.655	Left	13.2.10 	11
DubaiGrandPrixCircuit          	UAE	1	5.390	Left	8.10.10 	14
FujiSpeedway                   	J	1	4.563	Left	12.1.11 	15
FujiSpeedway-ShortLayout       	J	1	4.526	Left	12.1.11 	15
HockenheimGrandPrix            	D	1	4.574	Left	26.7.11 	 9
Hungaroring                    	H	1	4.381	Left	16.7.09 	10
Imola                          	I	1	4.909	Left	3.9.11  	10
IndianapolisGrandPrix          	USA	1	4.192	Left	4.9.09  	15
Interlagos                     	BR	1	4.309	Right	31.1.10 	10
IstanbulPark                   	TR	1	5.338	Right	11.5.11 	14
Magny-Cours                    	F	1	4.411	Right	28.4.09 	11
Monaco                         	MC	1	3.340	Right	23.5.10 	10
MontrealGillesVilleneuve       	CDN	1	4.361	Left	19.4.11 	10
Monza                          	I	1	5.793	Left	31.1.10 	10
Mugello                        	I	1	5.245	Right	8.5.10  	10
NürburgringGrandPrix           	D	1	5.148	Left	31.1.10  	10
PaulRicard                     	F	1	5.842	Right	26.7.09 	12
Sepang                         	MAL	1	5.543	Right	1.10.11 	15
ShanghaiInternational          	CN	1	5.451	Left	3.6.10  	13
SilverstoneGrandPrix           	GB	1	5.141	Left	5.7.10  	12
Spa-Francorchamps              	B	1	7.004	Right	31.5.10 	10
Suzuka                         	J	1	5.807	Left	31.1.10 	10
ValenciaUrban                  	E	1	5.419	Right	21.8.09 	12
GRADE 2
Albacete                       	E	2	3.539	Left	5.5.10  	10
Anderstorp                     	S	2	4.025	Left	9.5.11  	10
AssenNationalCircuit           	NL	2	4.555	Left	14.4.12 	10
Autopolis                      	J	2	4.674	Right	16.3.12 	12
BahrainEndurance               	BH	2	6.299	Left	8.6.09  	13
BahrainOasisCircuit            	BH	2	2.554	Right	1.4.10  	13
BahrainOuterCircuit            	BH	2	3.543	Left	1.4.10  	13
BarberMotorsportsPark          	USA	2	3.808	Right	3.5.10  	12
Brno                           	CZ	2	5.403	Left	2.4.10  	15
Bucharest                      	RO	2	3.105	Right	22.7.09 	12
CatalunyaShortCircuit          	E	2	2.977	Left	15.4.10 	11
Cleveland-BurkeLakefrontAirport	USA	2	3.389		21.6.10 	19
Daytona                        	USA	2	4.720	Left	7.2.10  	10
Denver                         	USA	2	2.680	Left	10.8.09 	15
DetroitBelleIsle               	USA	2	3.380		23.8.10 	12
Dijon-Prenois                  	F	2	3.800	Right	21.4.11 	12
Durban                         	ZA	2	3.300	Left	22.2.11 	 9
EdmontonCityCentreRaceway      	CDN	2	3.106	Right	23.7.11 	15
EurospeedwayLausitzDTM-Strecke 	D	2	3.478	Right	9.4.10  	12
EurospeedwayLausitzOval        	D	2	3.176	Right	9.4.10  	12
GoldenportChengdu              	CN	2	3.331	Left	1.5.11  	15
HockenheimSpecial              	D	2	2.604	Left	26.7.11 	 9
Homestead                      	USA	2	3.701	Left	8.2.10  	12
HoustonCity                    	USA	2	2.668		18.4.10 	14
InfineonRaceway-SearsPoint     	USA	2	3.600	Left	1.6.09  	10
IowaSpeedway-RoadCourse        	USA	2	2.080	Left	1.5.10  	10
Jarama                         	E	2	3.850	Right	5.11.10 	12
Kyalami                        	ZA	2	4.263	Left	20.11.11	11
LagunaSecaRaceway              	USA	2	3.581	Left	6.3.12  	 9
LasVegas                       	USA	2	3.927		5.4.10  	15
LeMans24Heures                 	F	2	13.629	Left	29.5.10 	 8
LeMansBugatti                  	F	2	4.185	Left	11.6.11 	 9
LimeRock                       	USA	2	2.448	Right	13.6.09 	 9
LongBeach                      	USA	2	3.168	Left	12.4.10 	13
MexicoCity-ForoSol             	MEX	2	4.472	Left	17.1.11 	14
Mid-Ohio                       	USA	2	3.600	Left	5.12.09 	10
MillerMotorsportsPark          	USA	2	7.224	Right	2.6.09  	12
MisanoAdriatico-LongTrack)     	I	2	4.226	Left	26.3.11 	12
MontTremblant                  	CDN	2	4.218	Right	21.6.10 	11
Most                           	CZ	2	4.219	Left	23.4.11 	12
Norisring                      	D	2	2.300	Left	21.6.10 	13
NürburgringOldtimer            	D	2	4.638	Left	31.1.10 	10
Okayama                        	J	2	3.703	Left	15.3.12 	12
OscherslebenMotorsportArena    	D	2	3.696	Right	11.3.10 	11
Portland                       	USA	2	3.150	Right	3.6.09  	10
Qatar-Losail                   	QA	2	5.380	Left	11.4.09  	12
RoadAmerica–ElkhartLake        	USA	2	6.477	Right	1.5.10  	12
RoadAtlanta                    	USA	2	4.090	Left	26.9.10 	12
Sachsenring                    	D	2	3.645	Left	20.8.11 	12
SanJosé                        	USA	2	2.322		17.8.09 	12
Sebring                        	USA	2	5.970	Left	13.3.12 	12
SepangNorthCircuit             	MAL	2	2.807	Left	26.4.10 	11
ShanghaiInternationalTrack     	CN	2	4.603	Left	3.6.10  	13
St.Petersburg                  	USA	2	2.910	Right	25.3.10 	 8
Sugo                           	J	2	3.704	Right	27.5.11 	10
SurfersParadiseQueensland      	AUS	2	4.470	Left	24.10.11	10
SuzukaEastCourse"              	J	2	2.243	Left	31.1.10 	10
Taupo                          	NZ	2	3.321	Right	30.7.10 	12
Tokachi                        	J	2	5.091	Left	28.5.11 	14
TokachiShortLayout             	J	2	3.405	Left	28.5.11 	14
TorontoLakeshoreCircuit        	CDN	2	2.870	Right	6.7.10  	10
TwinRingMotegiGrandPrix        	J	2	4.801	Left	9.5.09  	12
TwinRingMotegiOval             	J	2	2.492	Right	9.5.09  	25
Umbria-Magione                 	I	2	2.505	Left	14.4.09 	11
VirginiaInt.Raceway-Alton      	USA	2	5.248	Right	2.5.10  	10
WatkinsGlen                    	USA	2	5.552	Right	4.5.10  	12
Zhuhai                         	CN	2	4.318	Left	20.3.10 	12
Zolder                         	B	2	4.000	Left	11.4.09 	10
Adria                          	I	2+1T	2.702	Right	19.4.09 	12
Algarve                        	P	2+1T	4.684	Left	27.3.12 	14
DubaiInternationalCircuit      	UAE	2+1T	4.290	Left	8.10.10 	14
Estoril                        	P	2+1T	4.182	Left	1.1.10  	10
EurospeedwayLausitzGrandPrix   	D	2+1T	4.567	Right	9.4.10  	12
Jerez                          	E	2+1T	4.428	Right	8.9.11  	11
MisanoAdriatico                	I	2+1T	4.048	Left	26.3.11 	12
Monteblanco                    	E	2+1T	4.432	Left	9.12.11 	13
Nogaro                         	F	2+1T	3.636	Right	21.2.10 	12
VallelungaInternational        	I	2+1T	4.085	Right	27.10.11	12
VallelungaJunior               	I	2+1T	3.228	Right	27.10.11	12
Zandvoort                      	NL	2+1T	4.307	Left	30.5.11 	10
So, there are no choices for american tracks besides using Indy, or upgrading one of the previous 23 Grade 2 circuits, which include Laguna Seca. Impressive: the number of licensed tracks in US has increased many times during the last three years.
Ciro

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
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Re: Race in U.S.

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Huh? Anderstorp on the same list as Road America, Daytona and Le Mans?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Race in U.S.

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xpensive wrote:Huh? Anderstorp on the same list as Road America, Daytona and Le Mans?
I told you: it's not the same to reach Category 2. Category 1 is reserved for great tracks and great sites, like this one. ;) Have you ever googled for F2Technical? I didn't think so. ;)
Ciro

lebesset
lebesset
7
Joined: 06 Aug 2008, 14:00

Re: Race in U.S.

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well, amongst the grade 1 circuits is one that hasn't been used as a GP circuit for 20 years to the best of my knowledge , called paul ricard

wonder who owns that :wink:
to the optimist a glass is half full ; to the pessimist a glass is half empty ; to the F1 engineer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be

roost89
roost89
0
Joined: 10 Apr 2008, 19:34
Location: Highlands, Scotland

Re: Race in U.S.

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lebesset wrote:well, amongst the grade 1 circuits is one that hasn't been used as a GP circuit for 20 years to the best of my knowledge , called paul ricard

wonder who owns that :wink:
Is it a one Ecclestone, Bernie? :lol:
"It could be done manually. It would take quite a while, but it could be done. There is however a much more efficient and accurate way of getting the data. Men with lasers." Wing Commander Andy Green