Are F1 cars just too big?

[lebesset]

if I remember correctly , maximum dimensions for a F1 car are currently 5.5 metres long by 1.8 metres wide

looks like the 2012 regs will include a more compact engine ...why not a more compact car ?

we all note the difficulties of overtaking , but it is hardly practical to widen the circuits , so why not narrow the cars ...and while they are at it , why not a little shorter ?

if the cars were , say , max 5.0 metres by 1.6 metres the aero effect on the following cars would reduce , and also there would be more chance of getting by at the corners ...at the moment blocking the corners is pretty easy , would be more difficult with a shorter , narrower car

can't see any safety implications , a big part of the length is merely aero , nothing to do with the tub , and clearly the tub is much narrower than 1.6 metres

[PNSD]

Keep the track as it is. I thought it was a disaster when they reduced the track from 2metres to 1.8m!

I dont think the aero disturbance is a function of the car's size either but a far more complex problem.

[Jersey Tom]

if the cars were , say , max 5.0 metres by 1.6 metres the aero effect on the following cars would reduce , and also there would be more chance of getting by at the corners ...at the moment blocking the corners is pretty easy , would be more difficult with a shorter , narrower car

This is a complete guess / speculation / handwaving.

[jshaw]

I'd say it was the reduction in track and introduction of grooved tyres for the 98 season, and the resulting loss of grip (both aero and tyre) that encouraged teams to embark on the massive aero development that resulted in such aero sensetive cars.

I'm not saying that that wouldn't have happened without the regulation change, but I don't think its entirely a coincidence that we began to see the first extra fins and turning veins on cars about 2001/2002 as an attempt to reclaim lost downforce.

[Holm86]

i agree on making the cars shorter to about 5 meters max. but i would rather see an increese ind width to 2.0 meters rather than a reduction to 1.6 meters.

this is my theory :
a shorter car would be alot more nimble but also more nervus and not as stabile thru fast corners.
a wider car would increase mechanical grip.

this should offcourse be followed up by other regulation changes such as a complete diffuser ban (only a flat floor allowed). but instead increase the width of the rear wing and allow up to 4 elements on the rear wing. and then make front tyres same width as 09 spec and increase rear tyre width.

[axle]

Maybe just ramblings of an idiot, but I can't help but think F1 cars are just too big for their own good.

The VR-01 is supposed to be 5.5M long....that's huge, boat like....makes my cr@ppy saloon car look short...and if it's taking up tonnes of room that doesn't leave much track space for others.

I personally think they need shortening and then a marginal reduction in width, but not enough to ruin mechanical grip/stability.

Pro's for shorter & narrower cars:
We'd be more likely to get x-abreast racing
Potentially less Downforce would be produced due to reduced surface area.
Less potential for flow controlling bodywork.
Could be made lighter, cheaper with less environmental impact.
Potential for more nimbleness.
Might make tracks like Monaco slightly less boring by effectively making the racetrack bigger.

Downsides?
Is it possible to fit the equipment needed to run in an F1 race in a smaller package?
Is this just the fault of the removal of refueling? Or can both refueling be banned and smaller (4.5-8M long) cars make it to the finish with today's regulations?

[Gatecrasher]

My first initial thoughts were that this would make the cars very twitchy almost go cart like. Driving at 200mph in a go cart does not sound like fun to me. Then I did a bit of digging and found the Bugatti Veyron is <4.5m long. If you can do it in a road car then there is no reason for F1 cars to be this long.

[Pandamasque]

Definite no to the reduction of width. It should be 2m. Period.

I agree that the length of over 5m is too much.

[Jersey Tom]

I agree that the length of over 5m is too much.

And we're basing this on what? What logic?

Bear in mind, F1 cars have to sustain 5G's of forward load transfer under the brakes. Long wheelbases help distribute that. Short wheelbase = off throttle and trailbrake oversteer, and generally poorer braking performance.

The Veyron..
(a) Isn't a track car.
(b) Doesn't have anywhere near the braking capacity.

[Pandamasque]

And we're basing this on what? What logic?

Aesthetics and history of F1 and generally motorsport. Look around. F1 is getting ridiculous. Why on earth is it so necessary to achieve 5G under braking?

[Jersey Tom]

It's not that it's necessary or isn't. It just is. Why is it necessary to race faster than 100 mph? Why is it necessary to use slicks? They aren't... just how it is.

Personally I see no good logic, reason, or evidence.. that the cars are too long or too wide. Gotta come up with a good argument rather than a guess.

[Richard]

As I recall, they did radically narrow the cars 2 years ago, and the cars got longer. The reason for the current wheelbase is dictated by fitting the crash structures, driver survival cell, fuel cell, engine and transmission into the width.

The overhang at front and rear are partly dictated by the aero rules, but that space is also needed for the crash structures.

I suspect the design teams try to get the shortest possible car to reduce drag and weight.

IMHO the cars can't get any shorter. It would require refuelling, significant improvemnt in crash structure design (so they can be shorter without increasing the deceleration forces), fewer cylinders on the engine, and a tranverse gearbox.

[piast9]

Bear in mind, F1 cars have to sustain 5G's of forward load transfer under the brakes. Long wheelbases help distribute that. Short wheelbase = off throttle and trailbrake oversteer, and generally poorer braking performance.

So it would be good overall. Braking performance would decrease leading to more driver errors under braking and more outbraking manoeuvres, hotting up the show.

[Richard]

Why do we have two threads on this subject? The other one came first

[Pandamasque]

As I recall, they did radically narrow the cars 2 years ago, and the cars got longer.

12 years ago maybe?