Using tracks in racing

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Andrew__K
Andrew__K
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Joined: 19 Feb 2011, 09:14

Using tracks in racing

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Hi, Just signed up.

How do you think, it is possible to use tracks (I mean caterpillars) in race cars' design? Theoretically it could improve traction by increasing the contact area and, consequently, cornering speeds, acceleration times, etc. Do you know any historical precedents of such designs? What are their main disadvantages?

Thanks.

DaveW
DaveW
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Joined: 14 Apr 2009, 12:27

Re: Using tracks in racing

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Snowmobiles... Unsprung mass is not favourable, & efficiency would be poor, I think. I don't think tracks would improve cornering speeds.

Mystery Steve
Mystery Steve
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Joined: 25 Sep 2009, 07:04
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA

Re: Using tracks in racing

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This same topic came up a little over a year ago... viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7662

Personally, I can't see a benefit to using them for general road cars.

Caito
Caito
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Re: Using tracks in racing

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Tyrrel P-34.

I doubt that more wheels would give faster laptimes. There's a price to pay for that extra traction


EDIT: Now I know what you mean, I though you just wanted to add wheels, sry.
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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Using tracks in racing

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Didn't that Tyrrell have the extra tyres at the front though? Or was it at the rear?
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747heavy
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Re: Using tracks in racing

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did you have something like this in mind?

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not sure it´s any advantage in racing on sealed surfaces, as DaveW allready mentioned, their are some drawbacks.
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look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
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raymondu999
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Re: Using tracks in racing

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I'd imagine that would understeer quite a bit on grip racing formulae (such as F1) - no?
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Andrew__K
Andrew__K
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Joined: 19 Feb 2011, 09:14

Re: Using tracks in racing

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Thanks for answers.
I can't see a benefit to using them for general road cars
It's my fault that the question was so poorly formulated. You can treat this topic as an addition to the numerous topics about unregulated racing car designs that appear on this forum from time to time. Of course, we're not talking about road cars.
I doubt that more wheels would give faster laptimes. There's a price to pay for that extra traction
I (almost) have no doubt that multiple-wheeled AWD cars would be more effective if there were fewer restrictions on the engine perfomance. 6- and 8- wheelers are not in use not due to low efficiency, but because of the FIA ban on such experiments.

The question is whether we can go further and increase the contact area changing the design of wheels, tracks or whatelse, increasing friction (and adhesion force) between rubber and road surface (cornering speeds are the ultimate goal for this).
Many wheels is the good advice, but what then?
did you have something like this in mind?
Well I actually thought more (not in details) about redesigning of tyres and/or wheels ... but you are thinking in the right direction.
Last edited by Andrew__K on 22 Feb 2011, 13:10, edited 3 times in total.

Andrew__K
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Re: Using tracks in racing

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Didn't that Tyrrell have the extra tyres at the front though? Or was it at the rear?
At the front, and it proved to be quite an efficient design.
Williams FW07D had it at the rear (4 WD) but was banned by FIA due to its rumoured advantages.

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747heavy
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Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: Using tracks in racing

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not a racecar by any means but:

Image

apart from technical considerations/problems it is perhaps difficult to implement into most race series, due to the widespread use of "controled tires" these days.

interestingly, AFAIK, both the Tyrrell and the Williams opted for the "unusal" layout for aerodynamic reasons (less frontal area) rather then to increase traction/mechanical grip.

A Williams like layout ( e.g. tracks only on the rear) would be easier to implement, and has less problems with steering geometry etc.
Similar layouts where quite common (and perhaps still are) in some "multi purpose" military vehicles.

Image
Image
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Using tracks in racing

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Well, there are two more problems to be solved, for a race car besides the huge aerodynamic drag. Is that drag what forces you to use smaller wheels (like in Tyrrells), which means: more wheels = smaller wheels.

If you don't use smaller wheels, drag eats all the advantages of traction, so I respectfully disagree with the equation more wheels=better lap times. Actually in open wheelers a lot of the drag comes from the wheels, just check any simulation of aerodynamic flow and you'll see two red patches in front of each wheel, if red means high drag.

As the cat tracks are essentially a wheel covered with a track, you're better if you drop the track and use the wheel inside, which is necessarily smaller and has less drag.

So, the two disadvantages I would like to mention are these:

1. Lateral flexing: cat tracks are notoriously bad for lateral loads. They tend to derail easily.

2. Higher center of gravity: the complexity of the mechanism implies that is taller than a regular wheel, so your braking/acceleration is poorer because the COG is taller and you get worse weight transfer.

Other problems (super extra high rolling resistance, lots and lots of unsuspended mass) have already been mentioned. They are more or less the opposite of an ideal racing wheel, if I am allowed to put it in this way.

There are more problems, if you think in "perfection" (which is an excellent method for inventing new things).

What I think you want in a perfect racing wheel is:

a. Zero rolling resistance
b. Low lateral stiffness for a flat patch (that is, when the wheel twist laterally, the patch keeps in contact with the floor, instead of lifting one side of the patch out of the road). The walls of racing tyres help to "dampen" lateral movement, something very easily seen on a kart.
c. Zero weight for zero unsuspended mass that damages the response of your car to bumps or potholes.
d. Low gyroscopic effect that resists changes in direction
e. Half of the suspension should be "integrated into the wheel". Pneumatic wheels act like springs, that's the reason why they are used instead of solid wheels of yore. The quality of the ride in a snow tractor is horrible if you go out of the snow. Putting springs in the caterpillar track won't get you out of the predicament they have: you feel every bump of the road in your butt. Instead of the tunable "double suspension" that a pneumatic wheel offers, you get only one (that is, the springs and the dampers only).

So, my verdict is: guilty as charged!

For a civil engineer like me, the solution lacks taste, and taste is everything in structures. I guess nobody here will follow my drift, but you're using a compression member instead of a member in tension. So, instead of cables (very efficient in a thing that is round! A wheel is NOT a column!) like in a regular wheel, you are using straight struts (essentially).

Horrible. My "structural soul" aches only by viewing the thing... Now, if you could invent a track that works in tension, the Zen would return, but I cannot imagine how.
Ciro

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Using tracks in racing

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Just looking at the friction increase by going from wheels to tracks makes it prohibitive in terms of efficiency. You would probably loose 20-30% of the engine power just to overcome the additional friction.
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Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Using tracks in racing

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Ciro Pabón wrote:I guess nobody here will follow my drift, but you're using a compression member instead of a member in tension. So, instead of cables (very efficient in a thing that is round! A wheel is NOT a column!) like in a regular wheel, you are using straight struts (essentially).
Some of us do follow your drift actually... :lol:
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Andrew__K
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Joined: 19 Feb 2011, 09:14

Re: Using tracks in racing

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Thanks, Ciro, it's exactly the type of response that I needed. Very informative.