2023 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 30 - July 02

[mwillems]

This was a mess and you cannot simply say it is the drivers fault.

Sure it was a mess, but where do you exclude the drivers fault? They have to stay in the lines, or away from walls...
Most drivers managed very well to stay within the white lines. Either they were stupidly (Perez before T10) or deliberately going over the lines. Of course it was hard to judge, but then they have to leave some margin to the line.

Because they expect an amount of guidance from the FIA in the matter, as has always been the case. Simply to take it away and leave fault at the drivers door is not a balanced outcome. The FIA screw up but it is someone elses fault? I understand why some few think that way, but it's not any way to make decisions and improve things. Especially given how obvious it was for the FIA that they had an issue, and did nothing to deal with it, except hope that no one would say anything.... until eagle eyed AM did and made them look look fools.

[Spoutnik]

I find Ocon the most unlikeable driver I’ve come across in many years of watching f1. I take no pleasure in having that opinion but I just find him very hard to warm to for some reason

That's George Russell for me... just fake af

Same for me...
Ocon is obviously a terrorist on track but he's quite a nice guy out of the car and very straight forward, like Max he's a rude guy to me... But Russell it's like watching a politician I can't stand him

[CaribouBread]

I enjoy the drivers being mandated to drive within the white lines, its a feat of speed and precision! But what's the point in such mandates if they cannot enforce it in any meaningful way? Leaves a sour taste.

There is quite a list of penalties, what do you mean with "cannot enforce"? The once that gained from going over the lines got their penalties...all fine.

Personally, I think that a just or proper enforcement of such rules is to be done on track and as far as possible - immediately. I want such decisions to impact the dynamicity of the race not just time added to a race classification (but sometimes that is just not avoidable). The amount of penalties that were handed out after the race shows that they don't have either the manpower or the technology to regulate it. (And hell one might even argue if they have the willingness to regulate it because it took a protest to get all those penalties dished out. - i'm not of this opinion)

To reiterate, I think the mandate to drive within the white line is good, i just think they need to invest in better on track and off track methods to regulate it - both for the driver's and the viewer's sake. The drivers will always push the white lines, I believe the punishment should be swift and on track.

[JordanMugen]

Simply to take it away and leave fault at the drivers door is not a balanced outcome.

They know track limits are being enforced, so why not just leave margin to spare on every lap?

Hopefully a solution can be found to temporarily remove the outer serrated kerb and a small strip of the tarmac runoff and replace it with gravel or grass for F1 meetings, and then return the Red Bull Ring to the standard configuration for other events. Given the scale of the F1 event, making this small change for that one race meeting per year shouldn't be a big deal IMO (a bit like setting up a street circuit).

Or even a taller kerb of some kind that can be bolted in for F1 meetings? But sausage kerbs have fallen out of favour, due to their tendency to launch cars...

[JordanMugen]

The document

https://i.imgur.com/23atELc.jpeg

The Stewards very strongly recommend that a solution be found to the track limits situation at this circuit.

How did Lando never get picked up?

Presumably Lando did not exceed the lines on the monitored corners more than 2 times. Simple as that. Same for other unpenalized drivers like Alonso or Verstappen.

No need for "conspiracy theories" or allegations of bias!

These are draconian penalties. It's making the sport look like a farce. Considering that certain drivers were crossing the white line and not getting infractions make it even more confusing. This almost seems political. I am very skeptical of how these were applied

There is zero reason for the stewards to be biased. That is totally illogical.

Norris, Perez etc who seemed to be breaching it constantly for instance

Seemed? I'm interested to see this evidence collated!

Yeah Norris was out numerous times. Yet "officially" he only got 2 track limits warnings.

I'd certainly be protesting this new classification if I was affected.

He also went off at turn 3, unsure if this has been counted but was mentioned by Davidson.

Yes he was off at T3 all four wheels. Was close to going off there a couple of other times.

That one doesn't count as no advantage was gained, so running wide at Turn 3 was not being monitored. Not for Norris, not for De Vries, not for anyone.

Again, it is the same for everyone and allegations of bias are unfounded unless collated evidence can be gathered to show the stewards have erred -- e.g., the three or more instances of Norris going over the line at the monitored corners.

[Willy]

The uproar for track limits breach is illogical. Drivers did not respect the track limits, willfully and got penalized. There is no excuse for that and blaming the penalties is just in bad taste. There were some drivers who didn't breach and were good examples of respecting rules. The only issue I see is the manual effort in monitoring and applying penalties.

I think we are going to hear this again in Silverstone as there is a track limt at Stowe.

[JordanMugen]

Why is Suzuka lined with grass?

Because it is old and mostly hasn't been updated as Honda are purists.

Red Bull are purists too, but most of the 'safety upgrades' to the A1 Ring had already been done before they bought it I believe (apart from the new chicane for motorcycles, of course).

Most tracks have a zero cost method of reliably enforcing track limits. Why isn't this appealing to many?

Of course it's appealing. However Grade 1 circuits, especially if they are modern or have been modernised, have to meet different requirements than typical Grade 2 or Grade 3 grass-lined circuits.

Grandfathered solutions seem acceptable to the FIA however. Monza has gravel on some of the corner exits, as does Imola. Zandvoort seemed to be permitted to have looser requirements than "new, new" circuits like Abu Dhabi, Turkey, COTA, Shanghai etc.

Realistically, you can look at the layouts at Zandvoort -- and indeed Suzuka -- and be surprised they were given FIA Grade 1 status, as they are both quite narrow and fast circuits and don't seem especially safe!

Really it seems that circuits like Imola, Suzuka, Mugello, Portimao etc (and indeed Zandvoort, as all they did for Grade 1 was add two banked corners) have been "grandfathered" in to Grade 1 status.

For example would Brands Hatch be given Grade 1 status again if it didn't install tarmac run off areas?!

Street circuits also seem to have lower requirements to meet Grade 1 when compared to circuits like COTA or Abu Dhabi, hence the high speed sweepers being permitted to be added to (the itself outdated grass-lined 1996-style) Albert Park despite limited runoffs.

Anyway, hopefully a solution can be found where a strip of gravel or grass is temporarily installed around the outside of turns 9 & 10 for F1 meetings and then repaved for the rest of the racing calendar at the Red Bull Ring. It should be a relatively minor cost in the grand scheme of hosting a Grand Prix. Obviously the previous solution -- temporary sausage kerbs -- was deemed too dangerous, in terms of spinal injuries or worse, and is no longer used.

[ValeVida46]

They know track limits are being enforced, so why not just leave margin to spare on every lap?

I dont think there was a single driver leaving any margin at all. You can go by the penalties handed out and suggest these drivers at fault. But, every single car went over T9/10 limit, some more than others and some without sanction or penalty.

Aston Martin had to protest to get the stewards to look at a couple of incidents. Overall 1200 incidents in total.
If the sport is relying on teams to qualify a result after the fact, then the fault isn't with driver or teams in my view.
The application of track limit warnings was equally horrendous.

Some drivers were on count 3 before being alerted to their warning. Some drivers didn't get a warning at all for doing precisely the same as the car ahead (or behind), some served their penalties in the race and some got their after the race which affected the overall result(Perez with Sainz in his hunt for 2nd).

My own personal takeaway is the it's the application of the rule that is the contentious issue. There was no consistency, and a big lag in the alerts for many drivers. Very messy weekend

Presumably Lando did not exceed the lines on the monitored corners more than 2 times. Simple as that. Same for other unpenalized drivers like Alonso or Verstappen.

I watched Lewis, Fred and Norris on-boards for the duration of the race. Both Lewis and Norris were over T9 and T10 white lines way more than has been officially listed(though Lewis did get a second pen which sort of tallies it overall). Granted I didn't watch Alonso for much more than 4 or 5 laps and that was after his last pitstop on fresher rubber and he was doing a good job in fairness.
There is also an unsavoury element to the weekend that is relying on teams to rat on each other for the bringing certain laps under the Microscope. We saw this with Aston giving evidence against Alpine.

Again I just don't believe that this is the way the Sport should be operating.

[chrisc90]

A big banked curve would be pretty cool!

[AMG.Tzan]

So apparently you can change the result of a race if a team protests it!

Hmmm interesting! But it has to be any other race except for the last- title deciding -race of the season probably…

Joking aside…f1 asked the organizers to put gravel there last year yet they didn’t! Problem being Motogp and two wheel racing in general…so half of f1’s tracks have been destroyed with tons of run offs because motorbikes can’t find a better solution about crashing bikes!

My solution is just don’t take the white line as the edge of the track but the kerbs instead! Going beyond the kerbs costs you time anyway so nobody will be willing to go that wide anyway! Also the yellow kerb on the exits of Turn 1 and 2 (or 3?) can be useful too but not the sausage ones used at Monza that sent people skywards! These yellow kerbs run all along the corner thereby reducing the danger of someone hitting the front part of them which causes these kind of accidents!

One last question as we go to Silverstone! Perez last year cut the second to last corner at Silverstone to overtake Leclerc…wasn’t that track limits?

[AMG.Tzan]

A big banked curve would be pretty cool!

Oh God! Like the good old days at Ostereichring!

That final banked turn with the barriers on the outside was truly epic…

[organic]

Or like zandvoort final corner.. which seems to work fine for f1

[basti313]

The uproar for track limits breach is illogical. Drivers did not respect the track limits, willfully and got penalized. There is no excuse for that and blaming the penalties is just in bad taste. There were some drivers who didn't breach and were good examples of respecting rules. The only issue I see is the manual effort in monitoring and applying penalties.

Absolutely. I do not see much they can do in T10...it is one of the defining corners of this track. We are talking about a track with most probably the smallest separation between drivers, it is not a difficult track and T10 is the only really tricky corner. They need automatic monitoring and some feedback for the driver, but really doing it differently on this corner will kill the track even more.

I think we are going to hear this again in Silverstone as there is a track limt at Stowe.

Sure. Same issue...you want to make it difficult, but adding some gravel turf or whatever will result in a lot of dirt on the track.

I watched Lewis, Fred and Norris on-boards for the duration of the race. Both Lewis and Norris were over T9 and T10 white lines way more than has been officially listed(though Lewis did get a second pen which sort of tallies it overall).

So the drivers say they can not judge the line from the car, but you can in the onboards

[maxxer]

Surely there must be some technical solution , like a camera in the plank and change the rules that if the centerline of the car passes over the white line the driver gets a ping straight away. Or in on another place , but must be something which can be fixed without FIA stewards having to review all kinds of cctv cameras.
Anyway sorry for all the people who bought a ticket to see the race and come home to see a different outcome. And everyone at home paying extra to watch a race weekend and it ends up like this with 12 penalties for the same mistakes by drivers.
Amazing that Max and Charles managed to stay within the lines though seems it is possible

[chrisc90]

No excuse really. It’s the drivers that are the problem not the track.

Some drivers managed perfectly fine, others couldn’t. Where’s the problem? Not really the track, it’s the drivers who abuse the run off to gain an advantage. Rightfully enforced and punished.