2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

[DiogoBrand]

Ultimately though, Verstappen made the decision they were going to crash. He could have bailed on the move and run across the kerbs like everyone else (including Hamilton) during the race did in the same or virtually identical situations in order to avoid contact and live to try again later in the race, but chose not to.

He'd never have taken that course of action or put his car in such jeopardy with any other driver, but because it was Hamilton it was 'If he doesn't get out of my way, then neither of us is making this corner.' as he knew it would put at least Hamilton if not both of them out of the race and be a net gain for him in the championship. The 'That's what you get' was a particularly telling comment.

Even if it was his decision for them to crash, that doesn't change the fact that Hamilton closed the gap.
Let's say they did crash in lap 1 when Max did the same to Hamilton. It would be Max's fault even if Hamilton didn't make the decision to avoid it.
To me it's that simple

Granted, but closing a gap happens all the time, and the other driver usually takes action in that situation to avoid contact- like Hamilton bailing out and going over the curbs on lap 1, like Leclerc going over the curbs later in the race, like Perez going over the curbs when he took that place which he got penalised for. Verstappen had that option but decided he was going to collide instead. Ask yourself, would he have done that yesterday and put himself out of the race if it were Ricciardo, Norris, Leclerc, Sainz or Bottas in Hamilton's position? I think we all know the answer is 'No'.

First of all, when Hamilton closed the gap it was already so late that he probably wouldn't be able to cut the corner without going over the sausage kerb. Second of all, there's a penalty for "causing a collision", and not for "not avoiding a collision caused by someone else".
If Hamilton left enough width on the inside the collision wouldn't have happened (or maybe it would and then we could blame Verstappen, but it doesn't matter now), so the crash isn't Max's fault for not avoiding it.

[Juzh]

Was Bottas' drive really anything special though? He started from P19, which became P18 after Tsunoda started from pitlane. Then when GIO went round it became P17. He then overtook some really uncompetitive and slow cars which really didn't stand a chance against him.
The only 2 semi-competitive cars he overtook were both ferraris, but those were very slow on straights and he was on faster tyre.
He was then unable to overtake Perez who didn't have that good pace and only got podium via 5s penalty.
Meh..

[DiogoBrand]

Was Bottas' drive really anything special though? He started from P19, which became P18 after Tsunoda started from pitlane. Then when GIO went round it became P17. He then overtook some really uncompetitive and slow cars which really didn't stand a chance against him.
The only 2 semi-competitive cars he overtook were both ferraris, but those were very slow on straights and he was on faster tyre.
He was then unable to overtake Perez who didn't have that good pace and only got podium via 5s penalty.
Meh..

What else did you expect? It's Bottas

[nimoraca]

Even if it was his decision for them to crash, that doesn't change the fact that Hamilton closed the gap.
Let's say they did crash in lap 1 when Max did the same to Hamilton. It would be Max's fault even if Hamilton didn't make the decision to avoid it.
To me it's that simple

Granted, but closing a gap happens all the time, and the other driver usually takes action in that situation to avoid contact- like Hamilton bailing out and going over the curbs on lap 1, like Leclerc going over the curbs later in the race, like Perez going over the curbs when he took that place which he got penalised for. Verstappen had that option but decided he was going to collide instead. Ask yourself, would he have done that yesterday and put himself out of the race if it were Ricciardo, Norris, Leclerc, Sainz or Bottas in Hamilton's position? I think we all know the answer is 'No'.

First of all, when Hamilton closed the gap it was already so late that he probably wouldn't be able to cut the corner without going over the sausage kerb. Second of all, there's a penalty for "causing a collision", and not for "not avoiding a collision caused by someone else".
If Hamilton left enough width on the inside the collision wouldn't have happened (or maybe it would and then we could blame Verstappen, but it doesn't matter now), so the crash isn't Max's fault for not avoiding it.

I'm pretty sure that if it wasn't for the lap one incident, he wouldn't get the penalty, but since this was his, what, 5th time squezeing Hamilton on the outside (and Hamilton backing out of it) I think the Stewards have had enough with him.

[Roo]

Even if it was his decision for them to crash, that doesn't change the fact that Hamilton closed the gap.
Let's say they did crash in lap 1 when Max did the same to Hamilton. It would be Max's fault even if Hamilton didn't make the decision to avoid it.
To me it's that simple

Granted, but closing a gap happens all the time, and the other driver usually takes action in that situation to avoid contact- like Hamilton bailing out and going over the curbs on lap 1, like Leclerc going over the curbs later in the race, like Perez going over the curbs when he took that place which he got penalised for. Verstappen had that option but decided he was going to collide instead. Ask yourself, would he have done that yesterday and put himself out of the race if it were Ricciardo, Norris, Leclerc, Sainz or Bottas in Hamilton's position? I think we all know the answer is 'No'.

First of all, when Hamilton closed the gap it was already so late that he probably wouldn't be able to cut the corner without going over the sausage kerb. Second of all, there's a penalty for "causing a collision", and not for "not avoiding a collision caused by someone else".
If Hamilton left enough width on the inside the collision wouldn't have happened (or maybe it would and then we could blame Verstappen, but it doesn't matter now), so the crash isn't Max's fault for not avoiding it.

It seems you're saying change the racing line to accomadate someone who wasnt significantly alongside, who attempted something late and for a penatly he didnt get. Hamitons tragetory towards T2 was pretty much determined on entry to T1; you're inventing a line to suit.

At the angel Max was on from T1 he had very little room for T2. He attempted something he wasnt going to make stick.

[Wouter]

Granted, but closing a gap happens all the time, and the other driver usually takes action in that situation to avoid contact- like Hamilton bailing out and going over the curbs on lap 1, like Leclerc going over the curbs later in the race, like Perez going over the curbs when he took that place which he got penalised for. Verstappen had that option but decided he was going to collide instead. Ask yourself, would he have done that yesterday and put himself out of the race if it were Ricciardo, Norris, Leclerc, Sainz or Bottas in Hamilton's position? I think we all know the answer is 'No'.

Hamilton left enough space at first for Max to dive in. As Max did this, Lewis kept squeezing him off and there wasn't enough room for both of them.
Lewis did this imo to force Max to cut the corner so Max got on the track before Lewis and had to give him back his position.
Thus Lewis was assured that he would be ahead of Max after the second corner.
Max never expected Lewis to keep squeezing and when the gap wasn't wide enough it was too late to cut the corner and he had to go over the high curbs.
Very clever of Lewis and Max fell for it. Unfortunately for Lewis, his race also came to an end, zero points!

[f1jcw]

If Hamilton left enough width on the inside the collision wouldn't have happened (or maybe it would and then we could blame Verstappen, but it doesn't matter now), so the crash isn't Max's fault for not avoiding it.

Max has already being judged, found guilty and penalised. The above is your inaccurate opinion.

[El Scorchio]

Even if it was his decision for them to crash, that doesn't change the fact that Hamilton closed the gap.
Let's say they did crash in lap 1 when Max did the same to Hamilton. It would be Max's fault even if Hamilton didn't make the decision to avoid it.
To me it's that simple

Granted, but closing a gap happens all the time, and the other driver usually takes action in that situation to avoid contact- like Hamilton bailing out and going over the curbs on lap 1, like Leclerc going over the curbs later in the race, like Perez going over the curbs when he took that place which he got penalised for. Verstappen had that option but decided he was going to collide instead. Ask yourself, would he have done that yesterday and put himself out of the race if it were Ricciardo, Norris, Leclerc, Sainz or Bottas in Hamilton's position? I think we all know the answer is 'No'.

First of all, when Hamilton closed the gap it was already so late that he probably wouldn't be able to cut the corner without going over the sausage kerb. Second of all, there's a penalty for "causing a collision", and not for "not avoiding a collision caused by someone else".
If Hamilton left enough width on the inside the collision wouldn't have happened (or maybe it would and then we could blame Verstappen, but it doesn't matter now), so the crash isn't Max's fault for not avoiding it.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. As I said, the many other situations similar or identical in this race didn't end up with one car on top of another in a gravel trap. The driver in Verstappen's position decided going across the curbs was the smart move to preserve their car and stay in the race. In terms of an actual overtaking opportunity it was extremely ambitious at best, considering the piece of track they were on. Hamilton isn't obliged to jump out of his way every time the cars get close to each other, and the answer isn't just to barge him off the road if he doesn't. For me the onus was on Verstappen there to take action and he showed zero interest in even trying. He wouldn't have been penalised if he wasn't adjudged to be in the wrong.

[KeiKo403]

So what about the penalties earlier in the year at T4 Austria. Is that somehow different to what happened Lap 1 in Monza?
Also I think it’s telling that Whinger Spice was all for calling it a racing incident rather than trying to call for a Hamilton race ban…

[NathanOlder]

So by your logic it's Max's fault for going off track when the driver alongside him hasn't left enough space?

Strange how you only expect Lewis to give way, Max went for a gap that was not there and went over the track and kerb

He went for a gap that wasn't there because the driver alongside him closed it.

The gap was closing because the guy ahead was taking the racing line which he is entitled to do.

[NathanOlder]

I honestly was never a fan of Max because of his dirty driving, but when two cars are side by side at turn 1, and then at turn 2 the driver on the outside doesn't leave enough space for the driver on the inside to make the corner without going over a sausage kerb, I really don't see how you can blame the one on the inside.

Hamilton knew he was on cold tyres and Max would therefore be faster and go by. He did what he thought he had to do to not let that happen.

Ultimately though, Verstappen made the decision they were going to crash. He could have bailed on the move and run across the kerbs like everyone else (including Hamilton) during the race did in the same or virtually identical situations in order to avoid contact and live to try again later in the race, but chose not to.

He'd never have taken that course of action or put his car in such jeopardy with any other driver, but because it was Hamilton it was 'If he doesn't get out of my way, then neither of us is making this corner.' as he knew it would put at least Hamilton if not both of them out of the race and be a net gain for him in the championship. The 'That's what you get' was a particularly telling comment.

Even if it was his decision for them to crash, that doesn't change the fact that Hamilton closed the gap.
Let's say they did crash in lap 1 when Max did the same to Hamilton. It would be Max's fault even if Hamilton didn't make the decision to avoid it.
To me it's that simple

If it was Max's fault on lap 1 (same for Imola lap1, Barcelona lap1) Then why didn't Max get a penalty ? He has forced another driver off the track.

I tell you why he didnt get a penalty , because when your ahead on the inside , you own the corner and have the right to the racing line. Which uses the full width of the circuit.

[Roo]

Ultimately though, Verstappen made the decision they were going to crash. He could have bailed on the move and run across the kerbs like everyone else (including Hamilton) during the race did in the same or virtually identical situations in order to avoid contact and live to try again later in the race, but chose not to.

He'd never have taken that course of action or put his car in such jeopardy with any other driver, but because it was Hamilton it was 'If he doesn't get out of my way, then neither of us is making this corner.' as he knew it would put at least Hamilton if not both of them out of the race and be a net gain for him in the championship. The 'That's what you get' was a particularly telling comment.

Even if it was his decision for them to crash, that doesn't change the fact that Hamilton closed the gap.
Let's say they did crash in lap 1 when Max did the same to Hamilton. It would be Max's fault even if Hamilton didn't make the decision to avoid it.
To me it's that simple

If it was Max's fault on lap 1 (same for Imola lap1, Barcelona lap1) Then why didn't Max get a penalty ? He has forced another driver off the track.

I tell you why he didnt get a penalty , because when your ahead on the inside , you own the corner and have the right to the racing line. Which uses the full width of the circuit.

Why do the stewards use the term, "wasn't significantly alongside".. just saying..

[DiogoBrand]

Ultimately though, Verstappen made the decision they were going to crash. He could have bailed on the move and run across the kerbs like everyone else (including Hamilton) during the race did in the same or virtually identical situations in order to avoid contact and live to try again later in the race, but chose not to.

He'd never have taken that course of action or put his car in such jeopardy with any other driver, but because it was Hamilton it was 'If he doesn't get out of my way, then neither of us is making this corner.' as he knew it would put at least Hamilton if not both of them out of the race and be a net gain for him in the championship. The 'That's what you get' was a particularly telling comment.

Even if it was his decision for them to crash, that doesn't change the fact that Hamilton closed the gap.
Let's say they did crash in lap 1 when Max did the same to Hamilton. It would be Max's fault even if Hamilton didn't make the decision to avoid it.
To me it's that simple

If it was Max's fault on lap 1 (same for Imola lap1, Barcelona lap1) Then why didn't Max get a penalty ? He has forced another driver off the track.

I tell you why he didnt get a penalty , because when your ahead on the inside , you own the corner and have the right to the racing line. Which uses the full width of the circuit.

What the hell man? So being ahead while side by side gives you the right to squeeze the other car? You know that's not how it works.

[El Scorchio]

Even if it was his decision for them to crash, that doesn't change the fact that Hamilton closed the gap.
Let's say they did crash in lap 1 when Max did the same to Hamilton. It would be Max's fault even if Hamilton didn't make the decision to avoid it.
To me it's that simple

If it was Max's fault on lap 1 (same for Imola lap1, Barcelona lap1) Then why didn't Max get a penalty ? He has forced another driver off the track.

I tell you why he didnt get a penalty , because when your ahead on the inside , you own the corner and have the right to the racing line. Which uses the full width of the circuit.

What the hell man? So being ahead while side by side gives you the right to squeeze the other car? You know that's not how it works.

Someone should let Verstappen know that then, seen as he's done it time after time this season.

[selvam_e2002]

Ultimately though, Verstappen made the decision they were going to crash. He could have bailed on the move and run across the kerbs like everyone else (including Hamilton) during the race did in the same or virtually identical situations in order to avoid contact and live to try again later in the race, but chose not to.

He'd never have taken that course of action or put his car in such jeopardy with any other driver, but because it was Hamilton it was 'If he doesn't get out of my way, then neither of us is making this corner.' as he knew it would put at least Hamilton if not both of them out of the race and be a net gain for him in the championship. The 'That's what you get' was a particularly telling comment.

If that is what he thinks and they have evidence of it, then he needs a ban.

I think it's very hard to prove intent. Only Verstappen really knows. From looking at the footage I think such was his angle and speed that he wasn't making turn 2 and staying on the track regardless, although the telemetry would probably speak to whether that was the case or not. It didn't look like it to me and my feeling is you don't say something like that in the immediate aftermath of something that's accidental.

Well planned and executed by Max. He said after the crash that, this is what happen if you don't give space(which max thinks he is superior and all the time other driver need to give space not him) from his word, he already decided to hit Hamilton. Thats it. end of discussion.