Australian GP 2009 ( finally! )

[andartop]

... but he didnt spin and trulli did... no luck there...

I'd say if the driver in front of you spins while under a SC that's a bit lucky!!! I agree he drove very well and wise, but can hardly say that was an "awesome" drive..

[ISLAMATRON]

And the stewards do not agree with you, they penalized him for driving on track with 2.5 wheels and causing a hazard, not for causing an accident.

Calm down and get your facts right: officially Vettel was penalized for causing the accident, and Red Bull fined for ordering him to stay out in 3 wheels. And, since Vettel himself apologized for the accident, one can safely assume he had his part in it! It seems most people agree on 50-50 blame..

Hmm that wasnt in the one I read, but my mistake, regardless the stewards are wrong, as usual.

[ISLAMATRON]

... but he didnt spin and trulli did... no luck there...

I'd say if the driver in front of you spins while under a SC that's a bit lucky!!! I agree he drove very well and wise, but can hardly say that was an "awesome" drive..

Not really, but whatever... a very good drive but not awesome, I would agree on that.

[GianlucaZ19]

And the stewards do not agree with you, they penalized him for driving on track with 2.5 wheels and causing a hazard, not for causing an accident.

Calm down and get your facts right: officially Vettel was penalized for causing the accident, and Red Bull fined for ordering him to stay out in 3 wheels. And, since Vettel himself apologized for the accident, one can safely assume he had his part in it! It seems most people agree on 50-50 blame..

found the report that says he was penalized only for the 3-wheel drive.

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 2055.shtml

but Autosport says the grid-penalty was for the collision and the fine for the 3-wheel drive, which i think make much more sense.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74059

*Edit: by "make much more sense" i mean two penalties for two different things makes sense, not that penalizing Vettel for "causing collision" makes sense

[Jersey Tom]

Bullshit again... what kind of idiot just gives up 2nd place? How many times have we seen drivers overcook it trying to pass on the outside and end up in the kitty litter?(Kimi at that same corner last year I think?) Vettel had every right to defend his position.

And the stewards do not agree with you, they penalized him for driving on track with 2.5 wheels and causing a hazard, not for causing an accident.

Oh? See below:

Red Bull Racing F1 Team driver Sebastian Vettel has been given a 10-place grid penalty for the Malaysian Grand Prix. Vettel got the penalty because of his crash with Robert Kubica at Melbourne. Red Bull was also given a fine of $50,000 as they instructed Vettel to stay on track despite running on three wheels.

I bet you prefer tag rugby to real rugby don't you? It was a racing incident between two racers.

The stewards should interfere far less, only when someone does something really stupid or deliberate.

Well, it was really stupid. Hence the penalty Vettel even agrees himself! If both cars had similar grip levels and Vettel had a chance to defend the position then yes, absolutely, he should have tried to hold RK off the remainder of the race. But, given he was lapping nearly a second slower per lap, that's just dumb.

This is pro racing, and the start of a long season. You have to be smart. It is BAD news when a really slow car tries to defend against a much faster one. This is common sense. Vettel had two choices.

1. Let Kubica by and definitely secure a podium finish and substantial points. Not as many as for 2nd, but a good banking nonetheless
2. Fight a pretty much un-winnable battle on tires with crap grip, with a very good chance of causing an incident and throwing away ALL his points

1 is the wise move. Gotta be smart to win championship.

Don't get me wrong, pileups in T1 are stupid as well. Races aren't won at T1, only lost.. so I have no sympathy for anyone being overzealous there. IMO in the long run it's probably much better to give room into T1 and only fight for obvious holes. But with regard to stewards decisions, at that point in the race everyone has fresh tires and options.

[shir0]

We're not talking about mid-corner here. Vettel should have lifted early and given Kubica plenty of room as he was approaching the corner, instead of committing to defending it. Simple.

Wow... i love it when an "eat-----and-die" attitude comes up... I just wonder if that was Lewis in Vettel's position with the same exact incident, would you even bring this up?

Vettel is fighting for 2nd, man! Even I would not just roll over for anyone trying to take it away from me, slow car or not. So, I say again, I don't agree with the stewards' decision and that is just my opinion. But even then, any after race stewards' penalty decision is final and unappealable.

And yet no one was penalised at the start of the race?

Oh yeah... I forgot that multiple incident in my rant earlier.

So...I watched it on super slo-mo replay! And guess what? If anyone should be penalized for that, it should be Kovalainen. An almost frame-by-frame slo-mo shows Heikki touching the back of Rubens before Rubens was forced to hit Webber and Webber then hit Heidfeld.

(how's this for a conspiracy line:) And because it was most probably KERS related on Heikki's part, the FIA probably decided to keep quiet so long as Kovi did as well.

[ISLAMATRON]

Giving up positions is really stupid.... and not something any smart competitive driver would do.

What you are failing to realise is that Vettal did not force the Issue, Kubica did. Kubica forced Vettal onto the grass. To say that Vettel is wrong for being forced onto the grass is ludicrous. Kubica only had to give him proper racing room and there would have been no problem.

This is no different than if Vettel pulled to the side to let Kubia pass and Kubica hit him from behind.

Do you really expect VEttel to move off track, brake and wave Kubica by? Totally absurd.

[Jersey Tom]

Giving up positions is really stupid.... and not something any smart competitive driver would do.

The way I see it, giving up easy guaranteed points is really stupid. Suppose it's you driving...

95% chance you can walk away with a 3rd place finish.

15% chance you can walk away with a 2nd place finish.

Which is the wiser move? Over the course of a season, option 1 is what is going to give you the best chance to win one or both of the championships.

[shir0]

Kubica forced Vettal onto the grass. To say that Vettel is wrong for being forced onto the grass is ludicrous.

WOAH there!...

Calm down...Watch the replay...

Vettel was pushed to the grass AFTER they made contact.

What "I" think the issue is, is that Kubica "forced his way into the corner" only because he was so sure that Vettel would lift and let him pass without a fight. Well he thought wrong and swerved into Vettel. They were side by side. Vettel did not hit Robert intentionally.

And if anyone in a position scrap needs to be careful with risks, I'd say it's the man with something to gain who needs to be extra careful and be extra wise. If Robert truly thinks he's got a 1sec-per-lap faster car, why then couldn't he wait to get a good exit out of that corner and then hammer Seb out on the next straight? There were 3 laps to go when the incident occured. He could'vr easily done that, as you said, he was faster!

[Jersey Tom]

Neither driver played it all that wisely, both certainly have some fault in it. But I still put the majority of it on SV.

[ISLAMATRON]

Giving up positions is really stupid.... and not something any smart competitive driver would do.

The way I see it, giving up easy guaranteed points is really stupid. Suppose it's you driving...

95% chance you can walk away with a 3rd place finish.

15% chance you can walk away with a 2nd place finish.

Which is the wiser move? Over the course of a season, option 1 is what is going to give you the best chance to win one or both of the championships.

Nothing is guaranteed... and what if Button had a last lap failure a la Massa/Hungary... Vettel would have been giving up the win. You never give up anything... you fight hard and clean, but Kubica could have easily hit Vettel from behind just as he did from the side.

When Alonso keeps Schumacher behind(or vice versa) for the win its brilliant, but when Vettel CLEANLY defends his position it is stupid? So Alonso should have just gave Schumacher the win at San Marino huh? cuz that was the wiser thing to do.

Vettel was pushed to the grass AFTER they made contact. What "I" think the issue is, is that Kubica "forced his way into the corner" only because he was so surethat Vettel would lift and let him pass without a fight. Well he thought wrong and swerved into Vettel. They were side by side. Vettel did not hit Robert intentionally. And if anyone in a position scrap needs to be careful with risks, I'd say it's the man with something to gain who needs to be extra careful and be extra wise.

I've watched the replay several time before I made my mind up... Kubica squeezed Vettel onto the curb & dirt & grass on the entry of the corner

check the overhead at 1:03 of this vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQdiGI7b2dY

at that point Vettal loses braking because of the dirt& grass and we saw what the curb can do to the car with KAzoo.

If you are side by side with somebody you must leave them room

[shir0]

dude, he was on the red and white rumble strip (curb)...not grass.

[ISLAMATRON]

dude, he was on the red and white rumble strip (curb)...not grass.

true for the most part, but curb does not give as much grip as tarmac... and there was all types or grass & leaves & dirt flying around yesterday, I'm sure there was quite a bit right on the curb.

[Ray]

I'm really worried about Kubicas wheel more than him getting a DNF. His wheel came off and damn near hit him in the head!

[myurr]

Neither driver played it all that wisely, both certainly have some fault in it. But I still put the majority of it on SV.

And if Kubica had overcooked it but because Vettel had backed off he wasn't close enough to retake the place would you still be calling it a wise move? These guys are racers and should be left to race. The stewards constant meddling in this is frankly destroying the sport, doubly so with the comical lack of consistency.